Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: SNJ on September 03, 2013, 07:19:04 PM
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I'm guessing by the round cut lenses, thick base and polished pontil that this is a late Georgian or early Victorian piece of glass. Just wondered if anyone is able to suggest what it may have been made for - the rim, at 3.5mm, seems too thick to be a drinking glass and it is roughly bevelled on either side. Is it just a flower vase? Any opinions would be appreciated!
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vp00I539gOw/UiY1iw91nQI/AAAAAAAAEME/F7hyM70bxWc/s576/P9030073.JPG?gl=GB
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-g9fQAMViT5w/UiY1f6oeLtI/AAAAAAAAEL0/R1GFoWNgSW8/s576/P9030071.JPG?gl=GB
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-a5mcObQoPh0/UiY1hkcOnpI/AAAAAAAAEL8/7Qbb6qsR-1g/s576/P9030072.JPG?gl=GB
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0qj-BDoEKC0/UiY1dbSu7OI/AAAAAAAAELs/Qd99dcX1_Q4/s576/P9030070.JPG?gl=GB
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Might be a jelly glass,someone with more idea will be along soon..
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HI ,
I would say it is an ale glass but was taller when it started life , the rim looks like it has been ground down to me , these types should have a nicely rounded fire polished bowl rim.
cheers ,
Peter.
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Thanks for that, Peter. It would make sense as the top edge isn't as smooth as it might be and is too flat. It's still an impressive height at 6.5" - must have been stunning originally!
Simon
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certainly an ale glass, and may have been cut down, but not impossible for this to have been its original height. Not sure that I understand if you're saying the rim is cut similar to non-British examples, then bevelled, or just bevelled. Continental glasses often have a cut and bevelled rim as opposed to the British fire polished finish. Just looked at the ten cut examples I have and the height varies from 7.25" to 7.75". I don't have sufficient Continental examples to say whether those are shorter, on the average, or not.
These slender cut thumb print ales are fairly common, and l also thought they were flower vases when I first saw one - they're even more common in their pressed form.
The lenses are refered to usually as 'punties' - which apparently comes from their similarity to the circular deperession found under the foot, where the pontil scar was removed (punty being an equivalent to the punty rod which was responsible for leaving the scar).
The lenses are circular usually, although occasionally oval, and rarely you'll find a previous owner's name up near the rim, scratched on with diamond point.
The lenses seem to vary a lot, and there might be as few as three bands, or as many as six, but they always appear neat and well done, unlike the pressed examples which as you'd imagine are rather blotchy.
Date wise, these slender sorts with fairly bright glass date from the earlier part of the last quarter of the C19, probably, but I have to be honest and say that my ideas for this come from the pressed examples, which can be found in catalogues from the pressed glass factories - Sowerby for example.
As a form of decoration on pub/tavern glasses, these cut lenses seem to have been common throughout most of the Victorian period, but as far as I'm aware not earlier than that ....... other than perhaps some slightly similar 'hollows'. I have other similar cut thumb print ales - shorter and darker in colour - plus some rummers which I am inclined to think date more to the early to mid Victorian period, rather than the later period of these tall examples. Dating some of these pub/tavern ale glasses is not easy - some might show scars, others have ground pontils and yet others again have that 'swirl' finish under the foot (more an indication of c. 1900, I think.)
But fairly safe to say examples like yours are around the 1870 - 1880 period - but certainly not Georgian.
Good to collect, smallish footprint, not too expensive, and as Peter would say, 'you can use them'. sorry this is long winded :-[
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meant to add.........I'll post some pix of my darker shorter examples tomorrow - illustrating the height variation in these things. :)
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Selery is another option.
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in that case here are some more potential celery vases............... ;)
the taller examples of ales shown in the first and second pix are all about 6.5" (165mm) tall. The rummer shown in pic two is 6" (155mm) - and the darker coloured rummer in pic three is about 5.75" (145mm).
All have fire polished rims and depressions under the feet, and the taller of the two rummers has a lead glass ring. The last pic is just to show the pressed equivalent of the shorter examples with lenses.
The idea was to show the size variation in the taller type, also hopefully to show the colour variation. I'm not sure why some are dark (in the flesh the colour difference is very noticable) - might be one of several reasons................. excess of decolourizer, too much lead oxide, another chemical reaction to daylight perhaps.
Ideas sought please - most examples of these glasses aren't like the dark ones here, which are almost remeniscent of Georgian grey.
One of the reasons, apparently, that some of the later Georgian glass was a tad darker than usual, was due to the lead oxide being sourced from some Derbyshire mines - it contained an impurity it seems which they tried to eradicate, but couldn't, and found the glass workers preferred it anyway.
Date wise, I had thought the darker pieces were perhaps 1840 - 1860 - definitely earlier than those of a more normal colour - but this is really just my opinion - although as said earlier I'm fairly sure they don't pre-date Victoria's period. Again, ideas welcome please. :)
Apologies to Simon for adding to his post, and hope he doesn't object too much - just that I though it might be of interest to show the variation in these things.
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Hi,
Minimalist celery vase , for 1 stick !!!! ;D
Looking at the cut lenses on this one which if you look the top lenses there bottoms are between the lenses below,if you see what I mean ,so I think that very little has been taken off ,if there had been another layer of lenses above the top one there bases would still be present , so a haircut methinks , but definitely ground I am sure I can see grinding marks and the remnants of a small chip to the edge,as to age ,I think it has all been said.
cheers ,
Peter.
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It's not that far short of a celery, IMHO, as they were made in a variety of sizes. A flared top would be more applicable in this case, so perhaps it has been shortened. I always thought (in my limited experience, admittedly) that ale glasses were far shorter and wider? More like those in the last two of Paul's photos.
Simon: Could we have the diameter of the top, height of the 'bowl' please?
(and welcome to the rough & tumble of GMB! ;D )
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Hi ,
IMHO in all my years in glass I have only ever seen these referred to as ale glasses,but like most of the glasses we have put names of drinks to for example Ratafia glasses based on there shape I think its really a lot of guess work going on unless contemporary evidence can be produced for a glass having a use for a specific type of drink , earlier ale glasses are shorter ,and it is stated these were for' Short Ale' , a stronger type I believe . as for this one having had a flair removed I see no evidence of it having had a flair from the profile of its sides. these glasses are very common both here and in continental Europe and I believe were produced over at least a hundred year period , later ones I have seen in France being called 'Bistro Glasses '.
My money is on a cut down ale/bistro glass.
cheers ,
Peter.
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yes, I also forgot to say welcome to Simon..............so welcome from me as well. :)
I going with Peter on this one................ I've seen shed loads of celeries from the C19 and cannot imagine these ales being made specifically for such a use........... Celeries have a much wider capacity, and remember that the Georgians and Victorians loved to make celeries to look flamboyant with cutting etc., plus the flared top. I'd say that on the average C19 celeries were at least twice the capacity of these ales - if not a lot more.
Certainly in the more narrow sort of ale such as Simon's, you'd barely get one stick in them ;D
Anyway, off to Kew now - for Fred again ::) ;D ;D
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Many thanks to all who have replied - much better response than I'd anticipated and thanks to Paul for the photos, great for comparison and all the info. Thanks too for the welcomes.
To clarify, the top has definitely been ground flat on the top surface and then the outer and inner edges ground at an angle to achieve the bevels - I suppose they were trying to achieve a rounded effect. The bowl length, from bottom of the lowest lens is 11.6cm while the 6.2cm diameter.
Without knowing much about glass, I would say that logic would dictate this not being a celery vase. Victorian society seems to have been concerned with obvious shows of affluence, the bigger the better. A display of four sticks - the approx. capacity of this glass - wouldn't have impressed anyone! I suppose it might have been suitable for a budget conscious household, though.
To go off topic slightly (apologies) could anyone please direct me to any glossary of terms for cuts of glass - lenses, punties, printies, flute cut, petal cut, slice cut, etc., etc.?
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I can't think off-hand of a link for terms solely for cut glass, but two books I'd recommend - although neither are modern - are.....E. M. Elville's 'English & Irish Cut Glass', and G. Bernard Hughes 'English, Scottish & Irish Table Glass'. As you'd expect, they concentrate mostly on the earlier periods, but are comprehensive and there isn't much you'd need that isn't in one of them somewhere.
Peter might have better ideas for links and/or books...........but hope you stay with cut glass, we need all the support we can get. ;D
Having a few of these narrower ales, I can't imagine being able to shove four sticks of celery in one - unless you didn't mind the stuff coming out in small pieces :)
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Fair point about the celery but I was thinking about the poncy trimmed celery sticks available in the 'classier' foodhalls not the more manly heads of celery from Asda!
Anyway, thanks for the bibliography - I'll try and get hold of them. I have to confess that I have no particular allegiance to cut glass - although I'm certainly not averse to it either - but when listing old glass on eBay I want to be as accurate as possible. While researching, I find it common to find several near identical glasses all described differently (annular or blade knop, for example - the difference seems slight). This is not just other eBay sellers but the websites that sell items for jaw dropping figures. Basically I don't want to give an incorrect description or sound like a pillock...
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There are a few online glossaries and dictionaries about:
www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/glossa-e.htm
http://www.cmog.org/research/glass-dictionary
The Corning one does also give a few accompanying photos, but does have a US tilt on things.
Also:
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/glass.htm
These Glass Notes have a lot of other topics worth exploring!
I agree at those sort of sizes that this is not a celery.
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I'd agree that the Great Glass site is comprehensive and very useful when it comes to most of the terminology we use regarding glass, although there may perhaps be some omissions regarding specific references for cut glass.
Descriptions such as.......... hollows, splits, fan escallops/shell borders, strawberry diamonds, relief diamonds, cross cut diamonds, mitres, arch and point, Van Dyke rims, flutes etc., but I doubt that you'd need much of this for ebay.
Great Glass seems to cover the variaties of knops, bowl shapes, feet etc., so you should be o.k.
Would also agree some caution re the difference in U.K. and U.S. descriptions.......... I'm not criticizing, remotely, it's just that there are differences of opinion which might, on occasions, cause confusion.
Some while back Frank Andrews added a Museum of London link which appears very useful, although I doubt it rarely sees the light of day -
http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/ceramics/pages/glass.asp .......... and Lustrousstone added a glass glossary from the same source........ www.museumoflondonarcheology.org.uk
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sorry, that last one seems to have gone wrong - will try to locate correct details and replace.
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hopefully, this will.............. https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.museumoflondon.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FCBB7609-4C5A-48A1-9082-F42EBA062F4B/0/post92molglass_glos.pdf&sa=U&ei=86QpUqTXAo6g7AbxpICgCA&ved=0CAcQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE9MQ2fqhtUx46xvsuHfXgSkiisEw
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Thanks very much - I have looked at Great Glass before and it's very accessible to the relatively uninitiated such as yours truly. The Museum of London glossary is incredibly erudite and thorough; it took 20 minutes just flicking through casually to reach the end. At the risk of sounding puerile, I never imagined so many glass terms could have double entendres. Anyway, when I've got a bit of time I'll spend a little more time wading through all the different sites and links provided...
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I never imagined so many glass terms could have double entendres.
Oh yes, Glory Hole being one of them. Ooer Missus! ;)
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bang goes our attempt at being a family show then.. ;)
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I apologize if I've inadvertently lowered the tone of this forum (hangs head in shame)...
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In the ceramic industry there used to be a job called' the saggar makers bottom knocker'..
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I apologize if I've inadvertently lowered the tone of this forum (hangs head in shame)...
Oh trust me, you will have to do much worse to lower the tone of this place ;) ;D
Carolyn
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In the ceramic industry there used to be a job called' the saggar makers bottom knocker'..
And here's an old film of one in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5jYFzUBRHw
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So that's what they did,amazingly there's a sagger makers bottom knocker song on you tube as well ;D