Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: oldglassman on September 24, 2013, 05:00:02 PM
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Hi ,
Can anyone decipher this registration mark , http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-RARE-C-1843-SUPERB-HAND-ENGRAVED-GLASS-BISCUIT-JAR-WITH-S-P-LID-/151129195341?pt=AU_Decorative_Arts_Homewares&hash=item233000834d (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-RARE-C-1843-SUPERB-HAND-ENGRAVED-GLASS-BISCUIT-JAR-WITH-S-P-LID-/151129195341?pt=AU_Decorative_Arts_Homewares&hash=item233000834d)
And , is this needle etching ??.
cheers ,
Peter.
oooops my link dont work ??? (copy and paste) ???
Mod: Link fixed for you Peter, it was because there was no space between the , and the URL. ;)
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Going N/S/E/W to me it looks like 15/5 and 4/H
For link to the ebay item click here (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A-RARE-C-1843-SUPERB-HAND-ENGRAVED-GLASS-BISCUIT-JAR-WITH-S-P-LID-/151129195341?pt=AU_Decorative_Arts_Homewares&hash=item233000834d)
John
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Hi ,
Yep thanks I see that ,I am interested to know if that can be translated into a maker and date .
cheers ,
Peter.
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Well it should be possible to tell you - it might just be me being thick, but the lozenge doesn't seem to agree with the first period details - which it should - if the date is 1843.
Where the figure 15 is, there should be an upper case H, which is the year letter for 1843. Numbers in the top segment indicate a date post 1867 - and then the H is in the correct place for 1869 - trouble is then that there should be a letter in the bottom segment, not a number.
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That butterfly looks very like a Webb butterfly
Your link didn't work because you have a comma before the http; comma space would have been OK
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there are seven Registrations for 1843 (in the sense of items that are considered to be within the usual line of our sort of glass). Four of which I can discount as I have pix of these - the other three I'm uncertain of at the moment, but can check these in the morning if that's of interest.
I don't really understand the comment 'needle etching' Peter - are you referring to a process prior to the use of machine acid etching of c. 1850 - much of the design on this b/barrel looks very similar to machine work - especially the geometric patterning.
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Hi,
The needle etching I thought it was is the machine process with acid cut back ,the interest in the date lozenge is that if it is mechanical needle etching I suspect it cant be dated to 1843 , this would be too early for the process I believe .
Thanks Christine ,what a twit I am
:-[
cheers ,
Peter.
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I would agree with the suggestion that the apparent Registration date provided by this piece appears to be earlier than the generally accepted date of the beginning of machine acid etching.
It's also frustrating not being able to decypher the lozenge details.
Would assume you've read the relevant chapter (9) in Charles Hajdamach's book on C19 glass re machine acid etching Peter ;) ;)
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Hi,
Nope not got that book , this is completely out of my time frame for real interest I am afraid but the description combined with the registration mark got me wondering if it all added up correctly , seems like it doesn't.
cheers ,
Peter.
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Wot - you mean that I have a book that you don't Peter... ;D ;D you should get a copy, lots of very interesting glass with which to broaden your horizons ;) ;)
I will check TNA tomorrow for 1843.
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Hi,
Thanks for checking , as for broadening the horizon I fear that if I expand it any more I could lose site of land lol, the more I have delved into glass from the 16th 17th and 18th c the more I find there is to learn and it keeps me very busy,I do though have a liking for Webb Cameo glass lol but again no books , we just collect what we like when it comes to those.the latest 2 were captured at Cambridge.
cheers ,
Peter.
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wonderful pieces :)
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Using this calculator and the 5 at the bottom as a 'wildcard' the information that comes up is
http://1st-glass.1st-things.com/lozengetranslator.html
'( 1 Result of a search with the MONTH as the wildcard )
Parcel Number: 4 was registered on the 15th of December 1869 by:
Lloyd & Summerfield, Birmingham.'
I don't know anything about these things but maybe that might help?
I also don't know anything about engraving, but is it an illusion or are the outlines on some of those pictures actually raised on the glass rather than engraved into the glass?
edited to add - ok maybe not. This link seems to describe some processes and one of them is plate etched ??? I have no idea whether or not this was around in the late 1800's though
http://prewarglass.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/is-it-etched-cut-or-engraved-one-of.html
m
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I appear not to have taken a picture of Lloyd & Summerfield Registration 237158 - which may indicate it was something that wasn't considered to be of interest - as you can imagine there are many obscure items included in the sequence of Nos. If possible will look at 237158 today. :)
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Can say categorically that there aren't any designs (in glass) for biscuit barrels in the first volume of the National Archive Board of Trade Registrations. This first volume, of the diamond/lozenge registrations, covers Nos. 1461 to 84598 for the period 01.09.1842 to 06.04.1852.
Etched glass during the 1840 period seems almost non-existant, and the design of this barrel appears in general more advanced when compared to other pieces in that early period.
Attached are a couple of pix showing details of - coincidentally a biscuit barrel - Registration 237158 dated 15.12.1869 for Lloyd & Sommerfield.
Whether there should be a lid I can't say.
The date of Registration of the ebay biscuit barrel remains unclear - and it would seem safe to say that, based on the available details of the lozenge plus the form of decoration - and using the Board of Trade data at Kew - that at present it's not possible to confirm the quoted date of 1843. :)
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Hi,
Thanks Paul S, this would seem to confirm my thoughts that this eBay listing was more full of speculation than actual fact ,although not something I know a lot about the decoration certainly looked to mechanically etched to me and I believe that the technique used on this item does leave behind raised outlines to the images,but again not entirely sure , maybe some of our U S A friends might know more as I think the technique was widely used there in the later part of the 19th c though I think it originated a little earlier in England.
cheers ,
Peter.
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Hello
Very nice biscuit barrel! It looks like a two step etching. The outline - deeper bright lines -was created with a machine driving a needle through the resist. It was exposed to the acid bath to create the outline. Then the resist was removed inside the outlines and the item exposed to acid again - likely an adulterated or weaker acid to give it that frosted look. The 1843 date is way too early for this decorative technique.
Sid
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Hi,
Thanks for that Sid,its not a technique I am familiar with in any depth but you appear to confirm my suspicions that the item is a later date than given ,its a shame the registration mark is confusing but there we go another one of life's little mysteries.
cheers ,
Peter.
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Sid, thanks for explaining - are there any raised outlines on the barrel then, or is it an illusion?
Peter - those vases are gorgeous! I love the colours together.
m
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M
It is an illusion.
Sid
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coming back again to Hajdamach's book, some of the examples of machine acid etched work he shows, are almost unbelievably complex. And then some hand finishing afterwards!
Assuming this biscuit barrel wasn't a one off, and assuming the pattern was Registered at some time, I'll look in my Archive pix later and see if it's there.
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Paul
I have a complete biscuit jar for 15th December 1869 .
I will add some pictures later .
Roy
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Paul
A couple pics of the Lloyd Summerfield biscuit jar.
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good find Roy - thanks for sharing. :) Like that wheel engraved script on these older pieces, and makes sense to put it on the inside where the surface is smoother and it won't look obtrusive..........alhthough guess it could perhaps have been put externally on the base. Makes you wonder for how long a design such as this was manufactured.
Something from Tuesday mornings or perhaps a south coast town. ;) ;)
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sorry Roy, think I've just goofed...............I believe it is externally on the base. Obviously back to Specsavers. :-[
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Hi Paul
It was a Tuesday late morning find. I do not mind saying it was Sandown Park. You are correct 2nd time that the lozenge is on the base .
Its a nice quality piece and I have no intention of parting with it. Strange that you were only checking info at Kew a few weeks ago
Roy
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great place, I agree, things you'd never imagine could be seen - trouble is the cashpoint machine is too near at hand :o :o