Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on October 03, 2013, 07:03:44 PM
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Probably wouldn't have posted except that when looking through TNA records for this item, suddenly realized the original drawing on which this design was submitted actually shows the factory pattern number 1074 - something I'd not seen before. Must look more carefully in future.
This design was Registered on 22nd April 1874, and according to the Archive picture attached, the first shape appears to have been an open sugar - but when the comprt came into being I've no idea - although probably quite soon after I'd imagine.
Registration 281933, which is for the decorative design and not the shape, occurs on a variety of items, some of which apparently were still appearing in catalogues some years later. The comport was made in four different sizes (this one is about 8.25" in diameter) - what the other sizes were I've no idea. Just a little sun purpling on this one, but otherwise quite good condition.
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Here is a photo of the open sugar in Sowerby pattern 1074, as shown in TNA design represenation. 5 inches top diameter x 5.25 inches tall.
Fred.
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thanks Fred.............Sowerby seemed very keen on these frosted/granular finishes........................and attached is what I believe to be pattern 1074.1/2 - which is the smaller of two biscuit boxes from this factory. There is also a small 'butter middle' which is showing in the CD catalogue as pattern 1074.3/4.
At first I thought this barrel was the same pattern as 1074, but it's probably not.
However, have just realized that I'm unsure of the meaning of Sowerby pattern Nos. that include a 'half' or 'threequarters' - it looks as though it might be simply a designation for items of different use.
Would have thought that items sharing the main pattern No. 1074 would be related, but unsure - trust you will have the answer, as I'm now utterly confused. In fact the biscuit barrel appears to carry lozenge details for 1st June 1874 - although the items shown in the Archives for Sowerby for that date are for two plates - no sign of a biscuit barrel - frosted patterns from Sowerby during this period are quite common and a bit confusing :-\
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Thank you, Paul.
I can confirm that the 1074½ biscuit barrel carries the lozenge for 1 June 1874 (either RD 282663 or 282664 - I’m not sure which, or why it is different from the 1074 comport or sugar, though TNA design representations may offer some clues).
These Sowerby 1074 pattern variants are certainly confusing, and the only common feature seems to be the stippled sides, most of which appear to be panelled with clear dividers or borders, though the body of the large 1074 biscuit barrel is shown as stippled all over.
As to the significance of the XXXX½ or XXXX¾ variants….
the variants among the decorative pieces in pattern book IX (1882) seem to be XXXX or XXXX½ versions, and normally indicate differences in shape or size - straight as opposed to flared sides (e.g 1148 & 1148½, and 1154 & 1154½), tall or short versions (e.g. 1160 & 1160½) , baskets with handles open or closed (presumably formed after removal from the mould – e.g.1157 & 1157½ ), vases with sides crimped up to form baskets after removal from the mould etc (e.g.1403 & 1403½) .
The XXXX and XXXX½ variants in pattern book XI (1885) involve the utilitarian tableware pieces, and obviously involve different shapes with some common surface decorative feature (such as the 1074 series), different shapes here obviously being commensurate with different usages, but the way in which way the variants numbers are assigned seems far less consistent than those in pattern book IX.
I have no real idea why the 1074¾ butter middle should have a ¾ suffix as opposed to a ½ suffix. The only other pattern number with a ¾ suffix in pattern book XI appears to be with tumblers 985 and 985¾ (page 66), where version 985 is shown as being a heavier version than 985¾.
Perhaps they gave the job of allocating the pattern numbers to the office junior just before clocking-off time.
Fred.
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thanks Fred............ As mentioned, I have Archive pix for both 282663 and 282664 - one is described as an 'Ice Plate' and the other is called simply a 'Plate'. The first is just a plain all over frosted plate without any other decoration, and the latter has frosting which is broken by a type of star burst with arms of clear glass.
Without going into too much detail, the answer to this might be in Jenny Thompson's comments at the bottom of page 89 - something to do with a factory submitting various items on the same day, and with each article automatically being given the same lozenge data for that day.
So, it might just be that if Sowerby for example submitted the two plates and were given Rd. Nos. 282663/4 on the 1st of June 1874 - and if the factory also submitted their pattern 1074.1/2 on the same day, it would be given the same lozenge details as the plates - even though it was a different design.
Just my thoughts, and I'll post pix of the plates later tomorrow afternoon. Don't know that I'm entirely sure of the above reasoning :-\
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I have a dim dingling in the back of my mind that somewhere on the board is a post by either Bernard C or Adam D about Sowerby pattern numbers that mentions those odd ½ type numbers, but I can't find it as I can't recall which pattern it relates to and the search won't let me look for just the ½ (search demands a minimum of 2 characters!) But if someone fancies doing some rooting around they may find it... the one I did find was Barnard's post here with some info about Sowerby's numbers and catalogues, which is useful to know about: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,4123.msg33026.html#msg33026
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thanks for digging around Anne - it seems a more complex matter than I thought.
Quote from Bernard....................."The earliest precisely dateable pattern number is 1135, registered March 6 1876."
It's understandable, bearing in mind that Bernard's comments were something like 7 years ago, that with the passage of time there will be revisions to this knowledge. :)
We can, for example, now date pattern 1074 accurately, which is a design for frosted/clear decoration shown at the beginning of this thread in the form of a comport, and applied originally to an open sugar and shown earlier in this thread by Fred. This pattern corresponds to Board of Trade Registration 281933 and is dated 22nd of April 1874........................and you'd be forgiven for thinking that this now leaves only one thousand and seventy three designs to date. ;)
But I don't think it's that simple.................if you look at Simon Cottle's list of pattern Nos., they don't run sequentially .........no. 1166 for example is dated 16.10.1876, but a later No. 1177 is dated about two months earlier. ???
The point I was trying to make - but probably not very clearly - was simply that I was baffled by the fact that despite the biscuit barrel having factory pattern 1074, it doesn't carry the lozenge with details for that pattern i.e. 281933 dated 22.04.1874............................and instead appears to carry the details of 01.06.1874 - which relate to the two plates as shown in the attached pictures - Rd. 282663/4.
I don't know whether Fred has any pattern Nos. earlier than 1074 that can be dated accurately.
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Thank you, Paul, for TNA design representations of Sowerby RDs 282663 and 282664.
Both appear on page 38 of the Thistlewood Vol. 3 CD-ROM pattern book XI (1885).
The plain stippled ice plate Sowerby pattern 1074 would seem to correspond to the design representation for RD 282663, and the panelled stippled plate Sowerby pattern 1074½ looks like it corresponds to the design representation for RD 282664.
I will list some dated Sowerby pattern numbers pre-1074 in a separate post
Fred.
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Some dateable Sowerby pattern numbers smaller than pattern number 1074:
Sowerby pattern 1031; RD 297042 of 17 December 1875 – Parcel 16.
Paul has already posted the design representation of RD 297042 a as reply #3 at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54129.0.html
showing it to be a sweetmeat with ‘rope handles’ (shown at the bottom of page 44 of pattern book XI (1885).
(Oddly, the suite of ‘rope-handled’ pieces corresponding to the RD 297041, also registered on 17 December 1875 – Parcel 16, would seem to correspond to pattern number 1129, so pattern 1031 is way out of chronological number order).
Sowerby pattern 1032; RD 260404 or 260405 (not sure which) of 12 February 1872 – Parcel 6.
Thompson shows a representation drawing on page 30. An assortment of pieces in the same pattern appear on pages 3, 14, 17 and 25 of pattern book XI (1885).
Sowerby pattern 1035; RD 260802 of 29 February 1872 – Parcel 5.
I have a sugar basin bearing the lozenge, and a similar sugar basin shown with cover & underplate is shown on page 57 of Soweby pattern book XI (1885). Thompson gives the registration description as for a butter dish, and butter dishes in pattern number 1035 are shown on pages 4 and 11 of pattern book XI (1885).
Sowerby pattern L1042; RD 267742 of 7 November 1872 – parcel 7. Appears as a sugar on page 7 of pattern book XI (1885).
Sowerby pattern 1054; RD 274743 of 31 July 1873 – Parcel 5.
Discussed (initially as an unusual 3-tier cake stand) on the GMB at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52868.msg300375.html#msg300375
Sowerby’s earliest registered designs were a parcel registered on 2 February 1872 – parcel 1. They correspond to RDs 260183 to 261186, and Thomson describes them as covered dish, decanters and bowl (though doesn’t illustrate them). If Paul has the design numbers for this parcel and is willing to post them, then I may able to match some or all of them to Sowerby pattern numbers.
Fred
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Here then are pictures from The National Archives for the initial four Board of Trade Registrations for Sowerby from 1872. There's always a feeling that there should earlier Registrations from this factory, bearing in mind that this was a system going back to 1842, and so many other companies were recording their designs many years before Sowerby. A surprise I suppose that what eventually became the largest pressed glass producer didn't start until later than most.
As always sincere thanks to the Trustees and curators of The National Archives for their continued permission to post these images on the GMB.
Thanks also to the Mods. for tidying up my first post re the gremlins.
Look forward to hearing of Fred's success with the corresponding factory pattern Nos. for these four pieces. :)
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Thought I would add to this regarding Sowerby pattern number 1074.
These are the only two items listed as pattern 1074 in Sowerby pattern book V from 1874. A 'Salver' and a butter dish.
This pattern does not appear in the main pattern book, these are in the nine pages of additional patterns dated May 1874. (supplement to the main pattern book)
Additional pattern book for 1874 is on my website but it is difficult to see the factory pattern numbers.
Mike