Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on October 17, 2013, 09:54:23 AM
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Hi all,i immediately recognised this as a shape I'd seen before drooling over pictures of old glass and when i got it into my hands i was pleased to find it had a rough broken pontil,but it's very light with a hollow stopper and doesn't seem to have a ring to it,that maybe the shape,it does have bubbles and bits though with wear to the base,23cm to top of stopper,many thanks Ant..
PSit has a sort of frosty leaf decoration.
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Here's another photo,may have to be rotated to save neck injury ::)
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Hi again,just as an add on the decoration seems to be oak leaves and acorns,loosely done but very effective,so maybe Jacobite symbols,Scottish?..
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Im inclined to suggest that's wishful thinking ;). Quite likely last third of C19 to something like 1920 - 30, and my thoughts are not British. With very few exceptions, earlier stoppers were solid, and prior to the Regency neck rings would have been applied separately, although this one might also be made using that method.
Shape wise it might be prussian. The fit of that stopper looks a bit iffy. As regards the decoration, I think it's the 'loosely done' bit that rather takes it out of the C18. ;)
Sorry to be negative. Kevin has a lot of decanters - let's see what he thinks. :)
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Don't worry Paul I'm not expecting much,the neck rings are applied after it was blown I'd say and i read somewhere Jacobite symbols were used for along time..
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Must learn to do links,I've found something very similar at M.Ford Creech Antiques,described as George 111 half pint decanter,any thoughts..
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Hi,
The decanter may well be William IV/George IV (1830-1840) but I don't think the stopper is the original if it is. Rough pontil marks continued into the mid 19th century and later in Europe from where I believe your decanter possibly originates. Unfortunately three ring Prussian style decanters have been made since the turn of the 18th/19th century well into the 20th, and it is hard to be certain without being able to see the metal and the wear.
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Thanks Neil,trying to get my head around the shapes, i thought it was the mallet shape.The stopper doesn't match up with the wear marks i guess the original was broken so I'll try and find one at some point ,bullseye type maybe?,as for the metal that's what made me think it was some sort of copy ,it's just a touch brighter and shinier than i 'vie seen but it does have white bits and air bubbles encased in it and good wear on the base.
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the stopper on this decanter isn't remotely like a bull's eye (target) design, and think you'll find that a mallet decanter has either straight sides or, like its wooden namesake, expands slightly toward the base - not decreasing in width like this one :)
Outside of the standard shapes there are probably some 'in-between' sorts that are difficult to pin down exactly, My personal opinion is that this piece is too lightweight, the stopper is wrong for the period and the colour would need to be a little greyer. :)
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Thanks for the input paul,i meant the one to try to find should be a bullseye type,could take some time ;)..
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/banden/5650625635/lightbox/
I know nothing about these things but I came across this glass trying to find something else.
It seems to have a similar engraved decoration to your decanter. It's apparently Norwegian from Gjorvik glassverk but I don't know when it would date to. Looks very old to me (the glass).
Here is a decanter apparently with similar decoration to yours but is not the same as it has facets I think on the bottom half.
Just wondering if yours is a maybe younger version from Gjorvik?
http://www.lundsrudauksjon.no/?auksjon=1-april-2013
m
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Thanks ff,the shape and decoration seem spot on so that has opened up a new line of enquiry for sure,at first glance the glass works started about 1807,thanks again,now where is my Norwegian dictionary?
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http://www.mfordcreech.com/George_III_Half-Pint_Decanter_&_4_Glasses_Oak_Leaves_&_Acorns.htm
this is your link to the one you referenced earlier.
Sorry, I can't help anymore as I have no knowledge of things like this at all.
All I can observe is that there is some similarity between the decoration of the oak leaves and acorns on both linked pieces and yours but I've no idea if this was a widespread style of decoration at a particular time for example.
Also no idea if either attribution is correct.
m
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Some additional information regarding m's link showing the George III half pint decanter .........
Barrington Haynes book - to which reference is made for provenance and for dating pieces which are accompanied by a 'press-molded stopper somewhat pagoda-like' - was written originally some sixty odd years ago. Haynes wrote that these decanters seem to have been made in Scotland or (possibly) Tyneside, and were decorated variously with crude engraving, bright foral bands of paintwork, gilding and flashing, and he does give the pagoda description to some of the press-moulded stoppers.
Andy McConnell's 'Decanter Book'- published less than ten years ago, also discusses these particular bottles - which in the trade appear to have been called 'Newcastle decanters'. Painted, flashed and crudely engraved bottles are shown in McConnell (including pieces with oak leaves), and the examples include either pressed 'pagoda' or mushroom stoppers only.
McConnell also quotes the Barrington Haynes illustration (whose pictures were all b. and w.) although the bottle in question was a plychromed enamel version.
However, the point about all this is that opinions regarding origin appear to have changed in the last half century and according to McConnell these things were made "across Europe, probably excepting Britain" - the vernacular name deriving possibly because they were imported through the port of Newcastle-upon-Tyne.
McConnell quotes origins as possibly Bohemia (flashed bottles) and Spain for plychrome examples. Denmark is also given as a source.
Dates are quoted as c. 1830 - 1840, rather than the slightly earlier period mentioned by Haynes.
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Thanks Paul.
Just to add it seems from this link that Gjøvik glassworks ran from 1807 to 1843.
Google do a translate link for the site link I've given below:
From what I understand, it seems they were running early 19th century Glassworks on 18th century principles and so when there was an influx of better glass from other countries they couldn't keep up - that seems to be the gist of it but I am open to correction :)
http://www.gjoevik-glassverk.no/om_oss/gjovik_glassverks_historie/
So it seems those dates fit in with the dates Paul has given for the time period these decanters are estimated to have been produced, and there are links to attributed pieces of glass from Gjovik that have engraving some similarities with OP's decanter as well as some shape similarities (but are not identical as OP's does not have facet cuts on the bottom of the decanter).
However, I suppose it doesn't mean that similar decanters weren't produced elsewhere and with similar decoration.
m
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there is an online digital glass museum with Norwegian glass on it. Unfortunately I find it very difficult to understand what information they are giving and particularly it seems to me there is no specific dating on most of the pieces I've looked at.
However I did find this glass which has the similar oak and acorn engraving to your decanter.
I think it says it was produced in the 1800's but I think that's just a broad brushstrokes as they probably don't have specific evidence to date it any more precisely.
http://www.digitaltmuseum.no/things/drikkeglass/MH-B/UB-00826
So it's possible that your decanter might have originated in Norway. Paul I may not have read what you said properly so I apologise, but did the McConnell book specify countries particularly for the pieces with the oak and acorn decoration or was it a 'generic' based on the shape of the decanter?
I don't think I can help any more. Perhaps the next steps might be to see if this engraved decoration was specific to one country e.g Norway?
m
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just to add m, that I was referring to the decanter in your link only, and not to the original piece in this post.
The book uses the unusual press-moulded stopper, general shape of the bottle. and crudely engraved oak leaves as a basis to include them in the overall group of examples ascribed to non-British factories - there isn't a particular origin given for those pieces with the oak leaves.
Known examples of British wheel engraving of oak leaves appears to show the decoaration to be of a far higher quality, usually.
I don't know if wheel engraving of oak leaves did in fact continue throughout the C19, as stated in the link. I'm still of the opinion that the original piece in this thread is later in the C19, and not British - it has no real similarity to the linked decanters you's shown, other than the crude oak leaf decoration - but I could well be wrong.
Decanters aren't really my thing either, so regret I'm unable to add further reliable information. :)
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Hei ;),thank s for all the help and even if it doesn't turn out to be from Norway I've learnt alot. The Gjovik glass works seems to have run from 1807 to 1843 with it's heyday being 1810 to 1817 making decanters and glasses in clear and blue glass, can't make all of the translations out ,but it seems they shut down in 1819 opened again and stuttering on until 1843,they did have a engraving workshop when they opened.I'm really not sure to the origins of this decanter but feel there 're enough similarities to send a photo maybe to the modern glassworks started recently in Gjovik,1990's if I've got the translation right,thanks again everyone much appreciated..
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that sounds like a good idea :)
Meanwhile I also found this thread for you
http://precisensan.com/antikforum/showthread.php?35016-GJ%D8VIK-EMPIR-GLASS-Eller-hva
There are a number of pieces on there with similar engraved oak and acorns.
Perhaps the origination of the decanter and the glasses in the link you first gave at least, is Gjovik?
Although I suppose, if that was the case, then perhaps the decanter books that Paul has quoted would have known about that already.
Perhaps the engraved oak leaves and acorns was produced by a number of companies in various countries?
It would be helpful if you could put some more pictures on showing the base of your decanter clearly, showing any wear on the base and whether or not the base is indented at all.
Also one with the decanter the right way up on a plain clear white background :)
If you do get a reply please would you let us know what they say?
Many thanks
m
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Thanks for the extra info m and here are some more photos,it's not easy to see the wear on the photo's ,there is wear though and it feels rough similar to when you drag a nail over a folded foot..
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thanks they are much better.
I suppose it is very difficult to tell without holding the actual glass but the glass doesn't look 'new' to me.
I had a bit more of an investigation on the glass site I linked to and found that someone has said these glasses (the shape that is - they were referring to a post where someone had put on three glasses in that shape but only one had the oak leaf decoration) were made in Sweden, Denmark and Norway and also England (the glass shape I showed on a previous link).
Doing some more investigating I indeed have found one with the acorn/oak decoration, in a Glass museum, which is apparently from Holmegaard 1865
http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Drikkeglas/Matslebne-glas/Holmegaard-1865-993
There is another with the oak decoration from Conradsminde 1840
http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Drikkeglas/Matslebne-glas/Conradsminde-1840-996
This one from Mylenburg 1860
http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Drikkeglas/Matslebne-glas/Mylenberg-1860-1003
this one from Aalborg 1870
http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Drikkeglas/Matslebne-glas/Aalborg-1870-1011
So ... I can't translate the site, but it seems they may have been made in various places latter half 19th century with that type of oak leaf and acorn decoration. Your decanter doesn't look new to me ... perhaps it is Scandinavian and dates to latter half 19th. Perhaps there might be a way of investigating Holmegaard to start with?
The link to the site is here below - if you go to the right hand side, the functions of the various objects are there for you to click on and then they should show. http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Drikkeglas/Matslebne-glas/start=4#category
Again there is a page of decanters that look similar to yours although on quick glance I couldnt' find a plain version the same as yours
This one is Mylenburg 1850
http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Karafler-og-Klukflasker/Karafler/Karafler-1853-2000/Fastblaest-1855-421
http://www.glashistoriskselskab.dk/index.php/Glashistorisk-Museum/Karafler-og-Klukflasker/Karafler/Karafler-1853-2000/start=1#category
I hope this is fruitful :) I feel your decanter originates from Scandinavia - it might be earlier than later perhaps?
Edited to add:
having read some more here
1) post no 7 I think I've translated that these oak leaf glasses dates to 1800's in Scandinavia not earlier
http://precisensan.com/antikforum/showthread.php?35016-GJ%D8VIK-EMPIR-GLASS-Eller-hva
and also Holmegaard started production in 1825.
And by the way - thank go to the poster 'Banden' on the Precisensan board for all the links and information. I would never have found them without that information.
m
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A big thank you m and to Banden,i always think fir trees when Scandinavia countries are mentioned though oak probably burns for longer in a glass furnace maybe the inspiration for the decoration,I'll keep delving and keep the board up dated,maybe a post on one of their forums ? I'LL SHOUT THEN THEY'LL UNDERSTAND ME ;)thanks again..
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I think this maybe another Gjovik piece,it looks similar to Karve's post on m's,flying free,reply 18.It is bright glass broken pontil and alot of rustic tooling,also of interest i hope a high pitched ping when flicked similar to some comparatively modern good quality liqueur glasses i have.I know the Swedes had a history of home distiling so maybe the other Scandi countries did as well and these are made for some pokey stuff you wouldn't want to much of. 8)
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favour? can you post clear pics including
A close up of the engraving so it and the detail (or not)can be seen please?
Also a pic of the pontil mark/base?
A side on profile pic of the glass?
thanks so much :)
m
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Sorry can't find my magnifying glass,bleeding kids,but i did mean to post thisone ::)
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The Victoria and Albert has one as Holmegaard c1840-1860. They also agree with the possibilities in Flying Free’s links in Reply #20. V&A say “...the patterns of oak leaves and vine leaves are known to have been produced by the Holmegaard, Conradsminde (1834-1857) and Mylenberg (1852-1863) glassworks.”
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O1463286/decanter-holmegaard/
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These decanters were made in US early 19th century by various glass works like NEGC etc copying Irish decanters from Georgian period. The ones I've had have similar crude decoration, weird moulded stoppers, moulded bases with added vertical lines to emulate said Irish decanters and are made of a non lead glass.
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Looking at it, it's shape and proportions do not persuade me that this one is other than mid/late Victorian at the best, and as pointed out above, it could be a bit later. I don't think it has enough 'presence' to be the Georgian decanter it would purport to be. I hazard a guess that it's origin might not have been in Great Britain. German perhaps?