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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: agincourt17 on October 31, 2013, 01:47:54 PM
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A rare frosted pressed glass swan planter / posy bearing a date registry lozenge for 21 December 1874 – Parcel 4. 7 inches long by approximately 3½ inches tall.
This corresponds to registered design number 288015, registered by Jane Webb and Joseph Hammond, trading as the executors of the late Joseph Webb, Stourbridge.
Though I have only ever seen this single marked example of a Jane Webb &c swan, I suppose the same design could have been produced in several sizes. Has anyone else ever seen a marked one in a different size, please?
Joseph Webb purchased the Coalbourn Hill Glass Works, Wordsley in 1850 (having previously been in business with his cousin Edward). He died on 1 May 1869, aged 56.
There's a whole chapter on the Coalbourn Hill Glass Works from 1691 to 2000 in Jason Ellis's 'Glassmakers of Stourbridge and Dudley 1612-2002' (ISBN 1401067999), and lots of biographical details about the Joseph Webb connection from 1850 to 1892:
When his executors (Jane Webb, Joseph's wife, and Joseph Hammond, Jane's brother) took over (because his 2 sons, Henry Fitzroy and Joseph Junior were still minors) the business had a stock over over 234,000 items, of which over 140,000 were pressed. Most of the stock was tableware, from knife rests to decanters. A few hundred lamps plus a thousand presed miners lamps, but virtually no ornamental glass. There were 180 moulds, one stopper shop and three cutting shops, with a total of 56 frames. Joseph Hammond had previously run a cutting shop at Dennis, either as a partner or tenant of his brother-in-law, Richard Webb.
Joseph Hammond's management proved not to be successful, and the business absorbed much of Jane Webb's assets. Hammond was eventually forced out, and on 15 January 1881 it was announced that he was now wholly unconnected with the business, which was to be carried on by Mrs Jane Webb and HF Webb with assistance from Joseph Webb Jr. and Benjamin Robinson. Shortly afterwards, Joseph Jr. renounced all interests in his father's estate and emigrated to Philadelphia, US in 1881 where he worked for the Phoenix Glass Company.
From that time on, pressed glass production was gradually phased out in favour of more ornamental glassware, including chandeliers and incredibly ostentatious cut glass furniture to rival that of Osler (much of which went to wealthy Indian customers). A downturn in trade brought an end to the company in 1886. The works and adjoining house were put up for sale in January 1886 but failed to attract a single bid. THE MOULDS THAT JOSEPH WEBB AND HIS SUCCESSORS HAD USED TO PRODUCE PRESSED GLASS WERE SOLD TO EDWARD MOORE [my emphasis]. Henry Fitzroy Webb became a commercial traveller in the glass trade.
Unable to sell the works, Jane Webb leased it to Thomas Mitchell from 14 September 1887 for 14 years. Jane Webb died on 25 May 1899.
Page 305 (plates 316 and 317) of Charles Hajdamach’s “British Glass 1800-1914” shows two pages of designs for pressed glass by Edward Moore published in the Pottery Gazette 1 December 1888. Plate 317 shows 2 sizes of glass swan planters (a small one, #959, and a larger one, #960). Their design is so similar to the registered Jane Webb &c. swan planter to make me think that there is an extremely strong chance that the moulds for the Moore swans came originally from the Joseph / Jane Webb sale.
Other registered designs from Joseph Webb were discussed at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46735.msg265784.html#msg265784
and some of those appear in the 1888 Edward Moore catalogue.
Interestingly, GMB topic
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54633.new.html#new
draws some comparisons between some of the flower troughs in the 1888 Edward Moore catalogue and those shown in the 1907 Meisenthal catalogue at
http://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Meisenthal-1907.124+B6YmFja1BJRD0xMjQmcHJvZHVjdElEPTU1NjgmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTI0JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
Sure enough, the 1907 Meisenthal shows a swan planter #2515 (though in truth, the arrangement of the wings on the Meisenthal swan are more like those in the Burtles, Tate & Co. swans RD 20086 of 8 January 1885 than those of the Webb / Moore swans). Perhaps the Meisenthal mould-purchasers came on regular shopping trips to England following glassworks closures?
Fred.
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I've attached pics of the original drawing which Jane Webb and Joseph Hammond submitted in their request for this Registration - although the drawings omits any indication of dimensions, or whether there was more than one size.
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Thank you, Paul, as always.
I am constantly delighted by the technical and artistic quality of these design representations. Such a wonderful (and often definitive) resource. If only they were all digitised and online from TNA...., though I must say you seem singlehandedly to be doing a pretty good job as it is - 10/10.
I have a complete list (15) of the Jane Webb &c design registrations, design representations for three of which you have now posted on GMB for me. I hope you won't mind if I put them in a separate (cross-referenced) post for permanent GMB reference, and perhaps you might be able to show some more of the appropiate design representations in due course. As far as I am aware, only a very few examples of the 15 Jane Webb &c registered designs have ever been seen and / or correctly attributed.
Fred.
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some of the drawings/illustrations submitted are real works of art...........I've pix that are truly stunning, artistically, but then again some - like a the rather feint blue-pencil outline drawings from Sowerby are basic to say the least. I notice that in reality the modeling of the swan does deviate somewhat from the drawing.
I've not asked the question of the curators at Kew as to their intentions re digitising all of the images - as you can imagine, taking all 13 CLASSES into account and knowing the many many hundreds of thousands of Registrations, it would be a daunting task, although for all I know they may already be pursuing that goal.
Outside of specific requests for post 1884 Registrations, I do have data for most items from 1842 to 1884 ............after that date all CLASSES lost their 'separate' status and were lumped together in a consecutively numbered system - so you might have one number for a glass item and this might then be followed by hundreds of Nos. for lace, metal, wood, ceramics etc. I haven't the time or the stamina left in life to wade randomly through vast archives to locate the odd glass item, but can source an individual picture/data if I have the specific Registration details which will take me to the exact location.
If you include additional Jane Webb Nos./dates to the look up list, I'll do my best to provide information within a reasonable time. As said, if they are pre January 1884 I should possess the data already, but if they are later then they will probably have to wait until I next visit Kew.
Attached are three pix showing 'other' items that make up the almost limitless diversity of Registration subject matter since 1842 - and as always a very big thanks to the curators at Kew for their help with continued access to the archives. :)
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Thank you, Paul.
Fred.
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Fred you asked did anyone know of this swan marked in a different size. The one I have is marked with the lozenge for 21 December 1874 but I had it as being registered by Joseph Webb. Thanks for pointing out that he had died before this date and was registered by Jane webb and J Hammond. I have measured it carefully and mine is 7 inches long and 5 inches at highest point of neck.
Interesting information you posted on this subject, thanks Margaret.
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Fred, I realise that this is a little while after you asked (well quite a lot, actually) but I bought a yellow version of the swan this morning, same length at 7" but height 5 3/4".
The lozenge is barely legible and took a while to decipher. Is that faintness indicative of being produced in a well worn mould? Just as a matter of interest, do glass moulds actually deteriorate over time similar to those used for pottery? At risk of sounding ignorant, I've no idea what Victorian glass moulds were made of - presumably ceramic, plaster or something similar?
Simon
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Glass moulds are generally metal, and yes they do deteriorate with use
here's some nice articles on moulds http://www.thistlewoods.net/Lined-Lattice-Mould.html
http://www.thistlewoods.net/Magic-about-Moulds.html
http://www.thistlewoods.net/Making-the-Woodsland-Pine.html
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Here are some photos of a Jane Webb & Co. swan in yellow-green uranium glass.
(Permission for the re-use of these images on the GMB granted by Kevin Collins).
As to size, I simply have a note that it 7 inches long.
The pressing on this piece seems reasonably crisp, though I don’t have a photo of its registry date lozenge to see how worn the mould might have been.
Interestingly, this swan design is the only one of those from Joseph Webb or Jane Webb &c. that I have seen in anything but uncoloured glass.
I know that this was one of the moulds acquired by Edward Moore & Co. from Jane Webb &c. on the closure of the glassworks (it is actually shown in a subsequent Edward Moore catalogue), so I wonder if the use of well-used and deteriorating mould may account for less-than-crisp moulding on Simon’s piece, and perhaps even that the uranium glass examples were actually made by Edward Moore rather than the Webb glassworks.
Fred.
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Ah yes, identical to mine which - I've just checked - also glows; therefore it seems a little pointless posting a pic.
The feather moulding on the exterior and nobbles on the interior are crisp which makes the lack of lozenge clarity seem a little odd. Would Moore, if they produced it, have gone to the trouble of trying to erase the mark of a previous maker? Obviously difficult to say...
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Just out of interest Fred, you mentioned height as 3 1/2" in your original post. Was that supposed to read 5 1/2 as the former figure would make the swan unfeasibly stunted!
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Oh wait, ignore that last question - the length was also shorter...
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Hello:
Along with the advertisements in the December 1888 Pottery & Glass Gazette, there was also a letter from Edward Moore which in part states "We beg leave to inform you that by an arrangement with the Executors of the late Joseph Webb, Coalbourn Hill Glass Works, Stourbridge, we have become the proprietors of the whole stock of the moulds employed by that eminent Firm. These moulds are now in use here, and we enclose lithograph drawings of the leading articles..." So yes, we can document that Moore did indeed acquire the Webb moulds.
Sid
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I recently came across a pair of these in plain glass, as that variety hasn't been shown here I though I would add them. They are large at a Height of 5.75in and Width 7in. They contain little or no lead in the mix and the registration diamond has almost faded off on one, and invisible on the other, which makes me think they could be from the Edward Moore phase, produced off a worn mould.
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I may have shown TNA details before - unfortunately, I now can't remember, but if I have then ignore these. Brain now in gear - obviously not looking properly - I think these pix are better, and seems I didn't post the Register page before anyway - so not an entirely wasted exercise.
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I thought I’d share this Webb swan in an unusual peach colour, on first glance I thought it can’t be an original due to the colour but under close inspection I have found a very faint lozenge in the correct place as we have another with a prominent lozenge in a more common clear frosted colour . Seeing the info on this thread perhaps this was made by Edward Moore? As he bought the Webb moulds. I think Davidson later bought Edward Moore’s moulds. I don’t recall seeing another Edward Moore item in this colour? Thanks