Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Antwerp1954 on November 15, 2013, 05:50:20 PM
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I've just bought two of these glasses but one of them s in very poor condition being glued together and bits missing. The auction house say they are attributed to La Granja de San Idelfonso. I can find very little on this glassworks.
The glass is 25cm tall - it's big! What would it be used for?
What date would you ascribe to te glass?
To regild or not regild? What are your thoughts on this type of renovation. Someone had used gold paint to redo the gilding round the bowl rim. I've now used paint stripper to remove the paint and reveal the worn gilding.
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would it be possible to supply clear base shot photos of your pieces please?
Also if you roll up a piece of dark paper or some dark material and put it inside your glass, then the detail might show up. It's not possible to see any detail on your pic (not that I could help I'm afraid, but it would be nice to see the detail of it :) )
Also it does help if you do your searches in the language of the glass. Some of the museums in Spain have pictures or pieces of La Granja They are few and far between,but I know they are available because I've done searches for La Granja. If you use google books you might also come across pictures in books where some of the pages are available online. But that does normally require searching in the original language. It takes time :)
m
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it would be worthwhile asking the auction house their source for this Spanish provenance. There is a little information in Ward Lloyd and Dan Klein's book 'The History of Glass', but it's really very meagre and unhelpful for this piece - apparently a royally owned glasshouse which started somewhere around the middle of the C18 and seems to have closed during the C19. Unfortunately, wine glasses are not one of the groups of items that the book describes as being from this factory, but gilding they certainly produced, which again, according to the book was a cold process and consequently not long-lasting.
I don't think the purists will like your suggestion of re-gilding - I get the feeling that original condition is all important - tinkering with history is frowned on generally, as it misrepresents the piece - especially if selling at some time. I've some 24ct. leaf which I use in bookbinding - so thin that if I cough or move quickly it tends to fly off and become useless. This could be used over a natural adhesive such as egg white and burnished when dry, but would look new and so obviously wrong on an antique glass.
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There's some background information here (using google translate so you have to read it and get the gist of it as it's not an absolutely grammatically correct translation
http://www.soumaya.com.mx/navegar/anteriores/anteriores07/agosto/Granja.html
Otherwise there was an exhibition a couple of years ago of La ~Granja glass I believe but I can't find the info at the moment.
There are pics of the glass here as well
http://www.unaventanadesdemadrid.com/madrid/museo-nacional-de-artes-decorativas-ii.html
m
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Many thanks.
Stuart
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You're welcome - could we see some more pictures in close up of the decoration please?
thanks :)
m
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Hi ,
I think you need to look elsewhere for the origin of this 1 , i would think its Saxon or Bohemian , the facet cut bowl and knop and the type of decoration suggest this to me , la Granja decoration is usually engraved before gilding and usually a stylized type of rose or other flowers.
As to date i would think mid 18th c ,what was it used for ?? getting drunk !!! , large goblets are thought to have been used in civil and public ceremonies and gatherings , weddings etc for communal drinking,those who are members of the Glass association can view the selection of 50 goblets which I displayed at the Cambridge glass fair a few years ago , some with a capacity of 2 litres and more.
The gilding should be left alone , apart from being a very expensive(more than its final value) job to have it properly done ,it's just not the done thing for reasons already mentioned .
Below is a 14 ins goblet from the exhibition which I catalogued as Bohemian. (stem with repair)
cheers ,
Peter.
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Hi Peter
Many thanks for the picture of the goblet. The style and pattern of gilding in the glass pictured is almost identical to that on my glass. The pattern on the top part is indeed identical as are the swags.
The pontil is ground out but I understand this was done relatively early in Germany/Bohemia.
Looking at my copy of European Glass from 1500-1800 (The Ernesto Wolf Collection) there is a glass (no.63) from 1720 with a lightly polished pontil mark. It also has a facetted inverted baluster stem (made in Silesia). This book should be renamed "Glasses to drool over".
Having scanned through the book I see many similarities between the German and Bohemian glasses and the one I have.
I wonder whether this was originally a covered goblet judging by the way the 12 sided facetting changes to a circle just below the rim of the bowl.
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thanks for your pictures :)
I can't speak for your glass, but many Bohemian bechers and goblets had the slightly inset deep gilded rim and were not covered pieces.
m
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Hi ,
Most lids were made to fit inside the glasses so I don't think the ridge is an indication that it started life with a lid ,but its not impossible.
cheers ,
Peter.
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If from La Granja de San Ildefonso then the foot should be folded under and the stem hollow. The date would be circa 1775, according to "Ispankoe Steklo b Sobranni Zrmitazha" (Aurora Leningrad 1970). I did see similar items to this one in the Escorial, and in an antique dealer in Barajas airport - but it will be tricky to attribute with certainty. Similar items - engraved and gilded - were made in France (Le Creuset) and in Ireland - and we haven't even touched Bohemia or Venice....
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HI,
Hi ,
" If from La Granja de San Ildefonso then the foot should be folded under and the stem hollow.",
sorry but I cant agree, the folded under foot and hollow stem was used widely throughout Europe and I don't see how it can be a primary factor when trying to attribute anything to anywhere.I am also unaware of anything like this being made in this form and style originating from ireland in the 18thc so any available source material would be very much welcome.
" and we haven't even touched Bohemia" , I think we have , above.
cheers ,
Peter.
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the only goblet in the 1970 Hermitage exhibition had a hollow stem and a folded foot. Better?
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In Das Bohmische Glas Band II page 210 there is a night flask and beaker in the same gilded design as Peter's glass
'Vermutlich Morchenstern, um 1840'
which I believe translates as 'Suspected Morchenstern c.1840'
the flask and beaker are faceted but the beaker does not have the inset rim like OP's glass, the facets run to the top and it's finished as far as I can see, as Peter's glass is.
Info here including a small paragraph on the glass industry in SMRŽOVKA:
http://www.smrzovka.cz/en/vismo/dokumenty2.asp?id_org=100709&id=1002&p1=1010
'After 1848 next boom of industry came here. It was mainly traditional glass industry, which had the biggest share in the development of Smržovka. Extensive forests provided wood that was needed in large quantities for the glass works as a fuel and as raw material for the potash production.
The production was focused mainly on glass pearls and beads, and the grinding of glass (first report about glass grindery dates to 1753). The glass works produced hyalite glass, painted glass, glass jewellery, chandeliers. There was even a factory where different types of accessories were compiled. Around 1848 total number of 14 glass crimpers, 40 blowers, 1579 glass cutters were in this area, also gilders and other specialists were employed there. 1923 people worked in chandelier workshop. Fifty-six traders dealt with a remote trade.'
Das Bohmische Glas Band II page 210 also references page 138 in Felice Mehlman's The Illustrated Guide to Glass where there is a ruby stoppered jug, with facet cuts and what appears to be the same gilded pattern (very worn). Estimated at c.1840-1850
And another piece in Pazaurek/Phillippovich.
The caption goes on to say
translated via google
'Alle diese Gefäße stammen aus der Zeit um 1840 und konnten in einer Desfours-glashutte auf der Herrschaft Morchenstern entstanden sein'
All of these vessels are from around 1840 and was in a Desfours-glashutte on the rule Morchenstern have originated.
m
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... and could have originated....
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thanks Ivo :)
it's a real pain not knowing exactly the 'tone' or meaning of some of the words. I've been trying to read translations of Walter Spiegl articles and I have to concentrate really hard to get the right meaning of phrases.
So... 'could have originated at Morchenstern c.1840'
m
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Hi ,
Interesting link to the SMRŽOVKA glass factory , though i think trying to narrow the OP goblet to 1 particular place would be difficult also you will find that the type of decoration being referred to was used for a very long time and covered both the 18th and 19th c , in the late 19th c Lobymeyr of Vienna produced glass in the" Silesian Style" with the same type of decoration ,Meyers Neffe is another candidate for late 19th c resurrections , I still feel the OP goblet is as I first thought 18thc ,second half , mid was probably a little restricting. ( the one going under the hammer at the moment though I think could be a later 19thc one !!!! ;) )
cheers ,
Peter
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I've now got lost! OP - means? Which one is going under the hammer and where?
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HI ,
O P original post.
eBay just sold .
cheers ,
Peter.
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Peter that's interesting. When you say ' that the type of decoration being referred to', I'm trying to be cautious but on the night flask in Das Bohmische Glas, not only the gilding but the actual design all over certainly appears to be exactly the same as your goblet :-\
m
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Hi ,
Yep that design was well used .
cheers ,
Peter.
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ok thanks :)
m
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Hi ,
Sorry I don't have other examples to show ,this style of decoration can be found on many articles , decanters bottle flasks wine glasses goblets ,the list is pretty long , it almost as if it was from a pattern book and used by lots of glass houses ,you get cased sets of bottles with wine glasses with the same decoration and all of the above can date from the 2nd half of the 18th c to the late 19th c , my reason for dating Stuarts goblet is based on the form of the glass ,yes those to were copied but later ones tend to show later production techniques , differences in stem to foot join etc ,brighter metal overall substance of the article .
cheers ,
Peter.
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I meant to come back to this thread but forgot once it disappeared off the page.
Peter thank you for taking the time to explain :)
m