Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on November 27, 2013, 08:14:25 PM
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54884.msg311028.html#msg311028
Knowing nothing about how glass is made apart from the very little I've gleaned and understood from my books, I'm very curious as to a) how this bowl was made.
b) why it has a strange pontil scar or mark consisting of 6 small blobs, rather than a round polished mark or a smooth snapped off scar etc, i.e. I own a lot of glass, but none which has this type of pontil mark.
I've looked at hundreds of images now but because people often don't put base images on I've only managed to find a few that actually show the pontil mark like this (actually all Italian)
For example, not withstanding the fact that I don't think??? the colour of my bowl is right for Steuben nor the mark on the base, those I've found on real life photos at the Steuben pattern site, made at Steuben, are different because they have a polished pontil mark and on most of them (one exception I've found being a later version with handles) the lattice is started at the foot very differently. On those a trail has been laid around the rim of the foot and then rather than being pulled up once into a triangle shape, it is pinched and slightly pulled forming a 'raised blob' for the next layer of trailed glass to sit on. Only then is the next layer pulled into a triangle (the exception being a later bowl featured that seems to have been done in the same way as my bowl).
Looking at a past thread featuring some pieces with this design of lattice glass, Peter shows a very old bowl and plate with a lattice design and says:
'... In the Glass In The Rijksmuseum' catalogue they are described as 'open work mesh pattern',made of smooth threads nipped into an open work mesh. and in their day in the 18thc they were very expensive items,the open mesh work being entirely hand worked and time consuming.'
My green bowl isn't done in exactly the same way as Peter's but it must have been difficult to make, to keep the glass soft enough to work without reheating and losing the shape, and it's large at 10" diameter.
The fact that the base of my bowl reminded me of a bulls eye window pane, i.e. doesn't look as though it was blown into a mould to make the base, but looks as though it was hand-formed with the wreathing in the glass etc got me wondering about the pontil scar/mark. Is it in fact a pontil scar with a smooth middle and nipple in the middle, or is it where a 'gadget' has held the glass for it to be worked?
So it is possible my bowl was constructed as follows (edited ):
For the base
- first blowing a large bubble,
- Attach gadget to bottom of bubble, then cutting it off at the rod, opening out the bubble at the cut off end and flattening out the bubble into a disc shape, thereby leaving the circular wreathing and what was the end of the bubble as a smooth nipple in the centre underneath with gadget attached around it, but then leaving a cut rim.
- firepolish the rim of the disc whilst held on the gadget, and trail hot glass around the rim to make the foot of the sides of the basket.
-Then using the gadget to hold the opened disc, trail hot glass around the first circle of glass and pull into triangle loops all the way round,
- Trail another flat circle of glass around the tips of the triangles and use pincers to pinch together , then pull the flat bits inbetween into triangle shapes...etc. etc. for each layer finishing with a final flat layer of trailed glass for the rim
Question 1) Does that method make sense?
Question 2) If this was how it was made, then might the pontil scar actually be a gadget mark rather than where it came off the blowpipe?
Question 3) Is that method going to require slow cooling glass, or glass that remains pliable for lengthy periods in order to do all that work?
Question 4) In which case, could that fact along with the gadget scar indicate which country?
Question 5) Surely that kind of work is going to mean someone with a lot of skill making the basket.
Question 6) Would this kind of work been more prone to failure because of the fragility, length of time to make, annealing process?
Thanks for reading ;D
m
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The mark is caused by a gadget instead of using a glass blob, these are usually made at the works so unusual ones could be unique to a glassmaker/factory. I am certain their is a discussion about gadgets here with lots of useful info from glassmakers.
The basket is made by trailing hot glass onto the base and subsequent rings, it would be re-heated after each layer. Lots of skill needed to do it well as it is being turned all the time and the trails are adjusted with the pucellas all the time. Final shaping as normal once completed.
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Thank Frank - appreciated :)
I'll go and look up gadgets.
I think this one could be identified at some point as it has enough 'markers'.
m
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Quite a bit of studio glass that turns up here was made using an iron with four points, presumably as this leaves a smaller scar when removed.
John
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Hi ,
I too have seen what I believe to have been Bohemian and Czechoslovakian pieces from the 20th c that have had 4 or more mini scars,I had always assumed this was a variant punty iron scar as described above.
cheers ,
Peter.
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This is how Tiffin used their gadget for jugs in the late 20's here in the states.
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Thanks for the replies :)
I'm a bit confused - John, this one has 6 marks not 4 and is quite large and I would say given the size of the bowl, is the same size as a normal pontil mark. The diameter of the 'scar' is 3cm diameter or over 1 1/8th" diameter. So it hasn't been done to leave a smaller mark I don't think?
It's left 6 blob shaped sharp pieces of glass on the surface of the base of the bowl.
If it was the blowing iron that left the mark rather than a gadget then that would affect how the bowl was constructed. I can't think how that would have worked out in terms of constructing the bowl :-\
Peter thanks. I've seen very little glass in real life by comparison, so if you have any suggestions for searching I'd be really grateful :)
m
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Hi ,
Hi , I think you are confusing a blowing iron with a punty rod , the base would have been blown on an iron then transferred to a punty rod for the rest of the job to be completed , I think the idea behind these multy pronged attachments might be for ease in cracking of the rod when the piece is finished but that's just my idea ,more smaller points to snap than 1 larger one , maybe someone else knows the real reason for them?
cheers ,
Peter.
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You're right Peter - I am. Thanks.
So it's just a different kind of pontil rod, that rather than leaving a circle mark, leaves blobs of glass.
Ok, so it could have been used by any maker then. Not specific to Venetian/Italian glass. And has been seen on Czech glass as well.
mm, that widens the net quite a lot, except that I know from months of searching,these pieces are not easy to find, whether very old or turn of the century or even more recent.
I can see this is not going to be so quick to id ;D
m
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Hi ,
I thought I had something so here it is , an English Tankard with a coin ,this shows 3 sharp prongs and I think was made this way to give a clear view of the coin ,most tankards with coins at the bowl foot join pre 1800 and some after are obscured by the pontil scar which was normally left rough ,this tankard was early 19th c but I have forgotten exactly what the date on the coin was as it now has a new home .
cheers ,
Peter.
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Pontils can be all different types. I used to sometimes make crisscross patterns on the pontil if I wanted it to come off easier with less of a mark on the bottom. There are lots of different styles of pontils.
The "open web" style basket or vase has been made for many years by many different people and companies. A couple of years ago I saw Petr Novotny of the Czech Republic make one about about 20" tall. They have now been copied by some Chinese as well.
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Thank you both :)
mmm so now my bowl has gone from being possibly new (thoughts when I first bought it) to possibly old (looking at the actual glass and wear on the base), to possibly Venetian by a good maker (how exciting), to possibly recent Chinese....lovely ;D ;D That's kind of full circle.
I will have another search but if anyone could add links to more recent makers of these types of bowls or vases that would be fantastic. I'm pretty good at searching, but have been looking at these for the last few months and not been able to find anything at all, apart from those I've linked to and the pattern numbers for Thomas Webb and Boulton and Mills. I will add links as I find to the original thread, and also do a cross link to the blue and clear lattice bowl thread as well to keep this all together.
I'm off to look at Petr Novotny's work (20" tall sounds amazing!)and will add if I find anything more recent as well from anyone else.
Thanks also for all your time taken to reply and explain. I really appreciate it and find it hugely interesting to learn about all this technical stuff as well.
m
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A punty rod is attached with a small gather of glass, a gadget is not and attaches directly to the piece. It takes less skill to use a gadget but you need several for different sizes. So for a skilled maker little point in using a gadget unless it was company governed. No idea if it gives a speed advantage.
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by gadget, I presume you are referring to what we call in the U.S., a"snap". The glass normally requires a base that is designed to have a snap attached to it. when using the snap it meant that the grinding and polishing the bottom was not required. by using the snap you did not have to worry about the punty cracking and cooling and the possibility of the piece of glass becoming detached from the punty. the snaps were spring loaded to allow the piece to be removed from it.
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Thanks for the further information.
I suspect I probably don't understand this process completely, but I found some information here on a gadget used for bottles
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/heritagebranch/heritage/eacgpart2021081.pdf (scroll down to gadget page 36)
If this type of thing were used for the bowl, would it have had wide low 'finger' holders to grip the bowl and for the bowl to 'sit in' and be gripped around the edge of the base? (as opposed to the tall grips that a bottle would sit in for example) and before the lattice work was done? If so then would I be right in thinking the spring loaded punty would have been attached underneath and caused the prong marks? (having taken a close up clear pic it looks like there are 7 prong marks rather than 6 just for accuracy).
If it wasn't a gadget then am I understanding correctly that it could have been a pontil rod with 7 prongs at the end type thing?
like the example shown here
on page 1 of the thread, 5th post down
http://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/Clover-Pontil-m564192.aspx
Thanks for your patience!
m
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Hi all ,i find this thread interesting and if everybody makes their own rods then in away it's like a finger print identification,anyway i've found one with 5 little marks and alot of wear on the base,not that this tells us too much,could be from anywhere this one i guess.
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A very interesting topic, and I didn't have time to offer my input first time round. This is not quite related to all the answers offered above and is probably rarely used, but offers an insight into a rarely used glassmaking technique.
I was speaking to Ian Bamforth at the Ruskin Glass Centre a few weeks ago about a certain problem: How do you finish off an object that has a 'through hole', and where both ends have to be finished, and fire polished?
The answer Ian gave (there were other theories) was that the glassmaker could use a "doughnut" (donut in US?) punty. This is a ring (toroid) of glass that is applied to the punty. After finishing one end of the object, the punty would be applied over the through hole without blocking it, and allow the opposite end to be finished.
Just thought I'd throw that in, in the rare case that an example ever turns up.