Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: brucebanner on December 10, 2013, 10:11:54 PM
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Hello there can you help me identify this piece of glass, it's not English lead crystal it does not have that ring to it, there is a square ct base with heavy wear and the cuts are sharp, it's 6 1/2 inches in height, there is a gap in the lid for a spoon, regards Chris
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hello Bruce - welcome to the GMB :)
the short answer is that it's difficult to be sure with some of these pieces, looking only at the screen. Your covered jar shows a form of decoration often refered to as the Anglo-Irish style, with plain diamonds and flutes/blazes which were very common forms of decoration in the late Georgian/Regency period.
However, factors other than pure decoration are needed to be sure ........colour of the glass (in my opinion I'd imagine there should be some lead content if period) is important, as is a lack of symmetry in the cutting - if the cutting is too good that might be an issue. The style of radial cutting on the base, and how the arms are cut can also help to date.
A major problem here - with authenticity - is the amount of reproduction of antique table glass that was made between the end of the C19 and middle to late 1930's
Quoting in particular from Charles Hajdamach's 'British Glass 1800 - 1914', he says.........."In the late 1920's and early 1930's the Birmingham and London retailers Hill Ouston published a number of catalogues filled with designs for 'Reproduction Antique Glassware" etc. ................. page 405 shows some pieces similar to yours.
I believe that there was also some copying of British Georgian designs in eastern Europe in the C20 - and it's now known that some of the ABP patterns from very early C20 were copied much later - so it's an area where much care is needed.
I'd suggest that the most important issue here is colour - and it's not easy to produce high quality images for the screen showing the exact colour. Wear won't necessarily verify a 200 plus year old piece of glass - aside from faking the wear, most table glass over 70 - 80 years can show signs of considerable use anyway.
These are my opinions only, and it would be good to have the input of others - your piece may well be genuine. Where did you source the glass, provided you don't mind saying :)
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I picked the two pieces of glass up that i have posted from a charity shop yesterday for a fiver, i do have an extensive glass collection, this piece of glass has a dirty straw colour look to it that's what makes me think it's not English, i don't think it's 1930's i have quite a few pieces of recycled Georgian patterns by Webb, Stevens and williams and the like, there always crystal clear and look to good to be true and very well made, i'm loving this site, scrolling down the various posts and it's is a wealth of knowledge, what a great idea. I agree wear to the base means nothing (although the Antiques roadshow would have you think otherwise), the modern glass in my kitchen has more wear than some of the Georgian glass i own, it all depends on use and the general treatment a piece of glass has, if it's sat in Aunties cabinet for 90 years it looks brand new, thanks for your welcome and help
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I'd agree that a yellowish tint probably indicates a lack of lead - in that case the issue might be that this was made outside the U.K. - and then inappropriate to call it Anglo-Irish??
What is the condition of the diamonds - are they still all undamaged?? So often with this decoration there is damage on the high spots.
Any seeds in the square foot?
Got the name right now Chris ;D
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I've taken some more pics of this glass as i now realise just how bad the first one was. regards Chris.
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this spoon cut out seems not to be something that I can find on similar pieces in the books (that's not to say categorically it can't be found) - and my own three examples of covered jars/urns are without this feature, although I suspect they're possibly too large and maybe for sweetmeats instead - although I do have this feature on what I believe is a late Georgian/Regency mustard pot.
My two examples of late Georgian/Regency preserve/jam containers have lids without cut outs, and to the best of my knowledge my examples are British - regret I'm unable to comment on the designs of similar Continental table wares.
I'm wondering if this facility for a spoon on jam/preserve pots was more of a Victorian innovation - but not sure.
According to Wilkinson ('The Hallmarks of Antique Glass), these sixteen point stars occurred around c. 1830, and no doubt existed for a decade or two overlapping with the succeeding 24 point star - and copied at various times since, so not a feature to provide authenticity of period.
Having looked at some of my stars on known earlyish C19 pieces, my personal take on these pix is that the arms are possibly too narrow and pointed, and they're not sufficiently 'touching' in the area toward their centre.
One aspect of the making of stars, which should indicate period is that.................. earlier mitres were made with two passes of the wheel - hence one side of the arm appears longer (i.e. the point is assymetrical) - and if the points are too good looking then this is a POSSIBLE indication of later production.
As we've already discussed, on its own the degree of wear on this item isn't adequate to take it back to the period you suggest, so not something of help on this occasion.
Regret we're not really any further forward on this one, and you may have to live with some doubt, permanently.
P.S. Pix are an improvement, but can be even better by omitting hands and busy backgrounds. ;)
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Thanks for that paul, i think i might be seeing this as a piece of Victorian glass considering what you have said, the cut for the spoon and your knowledge of patterns and cuts and your detailed description, i'm pretty sure it's not a 1930's revamp, alas i once owned a photography degree but lack the equipment to produce a crystal clear images and mega pixles to upload would not allow it anyway.
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Hi Chris
Its not really about having great equipment or if you start of with a large file , my attached photo was taken earlier today for another thread using a fairly standard camera , Cannon power shot , the image started life at 3 MB but was very simply reduced retaining quality to a size acceptable to the forum with a couple of clicks ,lighting and background as has already been mentioned are more important than the equipment I think.I am not saying these are professional quality shots but they serve me well daily .
cheers ,
Peter
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Can you explain how you took this shot, set up and lighting, i tried to use a program to reduce high quality pictures suggested by another member "irfanwiew" i just could not get my head around it, i know you should use a white background with two black sides to add reflections into the glass and a backlight on the white background but it just does not work for me, the only way i can put pictures on this site is to change the setting on my camera to take 0.3 megapixels pictures, that way i can upload four pictures at one time.
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Hi ,
its really quite simple a box with a black interior with a white sheet of paper from the back top in 1 piece to the front of the base , the top has a sliding aperture ,sliding back to front , pull it forward and the whole at the top gets bigger etc the daylight bulb is above the aperture,take the shot from a few feet away with zoom to avoid distortion if too close ,using picasa "export" select the size you want and "export" it back to its original file , that way they don't get lost , all this is on the 1 window and very simple to use,
the attached photo I have just taken will probably explain it better
cheers ,
Peter.
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Thanks Pete this is my mark 1 i made last week, in essence it's the same only yours is more professional and missing a slider you will laugh when you see the pick.
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well , its a start , but you need a daylight bulb , the kind that are used by those who suffer from S A D ,the bigger the better , and apart from being a black box the top is necessary with the sliding lid to capture different shading by adjustment to bring out certain features , stems , cutting engraving etc ,and the best results are in a completely dark room with only the daylight bulb on ,I have all my glass in a cellar so darkness is not a problem . I am sure the pro photographers would laugh at my little set up but it works fine for me .
cheers ,
Peter.
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sorry you're having a problem with my suggestion of IrfanView Chris............... I tend to work along the lines that if I can do something then it should be o.k. for others, since I don't cope well with techno matters. :)
It's a free programme worth having, so can only say keep trying and have patience whilst your machine does the download - unless others can suggest something easier for re-sizing. :)
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Thanks Peter for that advice i'll get a daylight bulb and get back in the shed and Paul it was not a knock about the program you suggested any advice is really welcome it's just too technical for me grasp and too detailed, thanks chaps.
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Peter is dead right about taking the shot from a few feet away to avoid distortion. Also, it is advisable to use a tripod or another means to steady the camera. This is quite subtle, but it really helps to avoid blurring due to 'camera shake'.
Also, if you use a large sheet of paper as your backdrop, then curve it gently to create the impression of an invisible horizon.
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I have peered at all the photos of cut glass I took when I was in the Ulster Museum in Belfast.
I can confirm that there is not an example of your piece in my pics.
Sorry, that's not a lot of help!
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think we've bombarded Chris with enough photography advice already, so probably shouldn't be giving any more..........but just to say that another freebie download that I use a lot is the picasa image organiser - very good for improving contrast and adjusting light or dark. Only usable on Windows - not apple mac so I'm told.
Sue - In my opinion there's nothing of substance wrong with the shape of this covered urn/jar, or the decoration, or the square foot. Stylistically it's o.k., but.................to my mind mostly it's the colour that's not right for U.K./Irish late Georgian/Regency I believe.......plus other small issues such as the star, and as you've seen from our conversations the spoon 'cut-out' might be a problem.
The period 1790 - 1830 was awash with these lidded jars/urns of varying sizes, most of which were probably sweetmeat containers of one sort or another.
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I just use phtoshop for resizing. I can adjust contrast and brightness with that too.
But I can't do anything else with it.
Paul, ;D These things are all just "death by a thousand cuts" to a philistine like myself.
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Thanks for your help i'm about to post another one of my photographic masterpieces i think it might be Georgian regards Chris.
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quote....................." to a philistine like myself." No, no, never a philistine - always an interesting GMB member. :-*
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have just found the following in Miller's 'GLASS Antique Check List' (consultant Mark West). In the section on Cut-Glass serving pieces from the Georgian/Regency period, various forms of table shapes are discussed, and speaking of butter coolers it says............."Coolers are not to be confused with preserve jars which do have feet and a cut-out for a spoon"
So, it appears that cut-outs were a feature on pieces from that period, although I'm not convinced that on this occasion it vindicates this piece as period. :)
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After reading all you have said i have had a look at this glass again and the only damage appears to around the hole for the spoon and the rest is beautifully made, this may sound daft and stupid of me owning thousands of pieces of glass but i soaked it overnight in bleach and it does not appear all that straw coloured anymore, i have put on some pictures of the hole for the spoon, i think it has been added later maybe, thanks Chris.
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The hole will have been added after the cutting, as that would be the easiest way to complete the pattern, but it will have been done at the factory I think. Any damage is likely to be from use.
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I would highly recommend using diluted enzymatic washing liquid (the biological sort) in lukewarm water for cleaning glass, before trying anything else. It will gently get rid of anything organic.
Thanks for the kind comment Paul, but I can assure you, I really am a philistine about cut glass.
I like the fluidity of hot-worked glass and lots of colour.
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quite a coincidence that I should find something similar yesterday in one of my regular charity shop type haunts - and probably one of the oldest pieces I've had from this source.
Whilst not a preserve pot, thought it of interest to show in view of the colour which more than anything else convinces me it's period - a greyness typical of glass from the Georgian/Regency era. Lead glass and showing substantial wear on the foot, with a great ring despite being very heavy. Fortunately, damage is confined, as you'd expect, to the extremities of the diamonds, mostly on the body - the lid seems to have esacped for whatever reason. One or two small stones as usual.
This is almost certainly a lidded sweetmeat (no cut-out on the lid) decorated with mostly plain diamonds - three bands of prismatic cutting and serrations around the rim of body and lid and with what looks like a capstan stem. Although not cut too well in the centre, the 24 point star would suggest c. 1830 - 40. Overall height is about 7.25" (185mm).
All the features we've discussed for these things, plus the colour, convince me of late Regency:)
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Is greyness in glass a sign of age? If so, then I possibly passed up a very old piece earlier today.
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as a generalization - and combined with other features - then yes, it is often typical of much glass from the C18 and early C19. Sorry to hear of your sad news ;D
The moral of the story is possibly that, if in doubt - and assuming not too expensive - to buy the piece and avoid the risk of losing something good............... you can always give it away to a charity shop later if no good. :)