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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: bOBA on January 03, 2014, 09:45:45 PM
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Happy New Year everyone. I had the luck of being given some glasses recently, that someone in my family had collected. I am really pleased to look after them, as it demonstrates that I am not the first glass collector in my family! I have a few more coming my way, including some "penny licks." Can someone please recommend a reliable book on this subject please? Partly from browsing GMB and reading contributions from Paul S, I understand they are possibly English drinking glasses (for drinking any liquid) of about 1820? This is not my normal collecting area and I would happily be corrected. Although of no great monetary value, I am pleased to look after such historically interesting items, especially with some sentimental attachment too. One base is pictured. Cheers!
Robert (bOBA)
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Hi, the glasses pictured are generically known as rummers, as rum based drinks (punch, toddy, grog) were thought to have been the major purpose for their use. I can't quite see from the base of the glass whether it has a gadget mark on it or not but the U-shaped bowls of two of your glasses are indicative of mid to late 19th century rummers. Hope this helps.
Happy New Year
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This is the first time I've heard the term Rummer explained as something to do with rum. Rummer is a glass term from German - the language which produced most glass terms, where a Roemer is a stemmed goblet in the Roman style for wine.
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Hi ,
Sorry !!!!! but !!!! Rummer has nothing to do with the drink Rum , it is derived from the Dutch/German word " Roemer " see Tim Mills book Rummers for a fuller explanation.
Cheers ,
Peter.
oooops you beat me to it Ivo.
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I think your glasses look as if they would be lovely things to use, Robert.
*Something* about them makes my hands itch to feel them, see how they balance, fondle them, see how well they fit my hand...
:)
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I'm sure that Neil isn't contesting the derivation of the English word rummer as NOT having originated from the German roemer - and if you read his post again you will see that he has said only that ...... "the glasses pictured are generically known as rummers, as rum based drinks (punch, toddy, grog) were thought to have been the major purpose for their use." There's nothing wrong, historically, with what he has said, certainly as far as usage of this shaped glass goes in the U.K. - in fact a variety of spirit based drinks are known to have been drunk from what the British called a rummer.
Ivo and Peter are both correct, of course, regarding the fact that the British word rummer - to quote Tim Mills - "is an anglicized form or corruption of the Dutch word roemer." - a glass totally unlike those above, and which were used for blonde wines.
If you read Douglas Ash, G. Bernard Hughes and Geoffrey Wills - they all comment that rum was one of the drinks consumed from glasses of the shape shown above, and this was the extent of Neil's assertion.
Having looked again at Hogarth's 'Night' engraving, showing the inn sign of what is a British rummer shaped glass, my own opinion is that it's not possible to be certain whether this is a drinking rummer or toddy rummer - since within the area of the sign there is nothing with which to make a size comparison - one being a lot larger than the other. It's known that the toddy rummer (associated with the toddy lifter or ladle) was a commonplace item, and this drink was consumed from the smaller drinking rummer, so the depiction might be of either.
I'm also doubtful that we can say the contents of this particular glass on the inn sign are beer......... the slightly paler top section of the glass may simply be the more transparent part of the glass devoid of the booze - throthy heads (carbonated) on beer are probabaly more a product of the C20 than c. 1738.
Rummers with crazed bottoms (showing where the sugar crusher was used) are seen occasionally, showing that hot toddies were fairly common, although a variety of beverages were consumed from this shape of glass.
Pubs/inns with the name 'Rummer' were, apparently, not uncommon in London, Bristol and Liverpool.
Isn't it a shame Sue, that you can only dream of fondling them - but I agee that they are a type of glass of great social comment and come from that most interesting of centuries when the British, depending on your point of view, were blessed with Hanoverian monarchs.
And..............as to Robert's comments about penny licks - as you can probably imagine there appears not to be a book devoted these little pieces - very brief mention is made in Hajdamach's book, but don't think you'll find much else apart from that. If you do please let me know - presume you've seen my pix of some which I posted earlier this year I believe.
Regarding Neil's comments about not seeing the gadget mark............I doubt that you will........as Peter has now put us right on this matter, it has nothing to do with the Y or T shaped indentations on the underside of the foot (that is where the shears separate the pontil rod gob) - I've tried looking for gadget marks (which will be on the top of the foot anyway), and have so far failed to see any - but if you do find one and can photograph it, please post immediately.
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aaah, but Peter let me fondle LOADS of his top pieces last November... even the utterly glorious stippled "cherubs" glass...
(my hands are getting itchy again... I have to go and fondle somthing of serious quality to satisfy my need, right now. :P)
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HI ,
quote "If you read Douglas Ash, G. Bernard Hughes and Geoffrey Wills - they all comment that rum was one of the drinks consumed from glasses of the shape shown above, and this was the extent of Neil's assertion." note , one of the drinks,
Quote from Neil " as rum based drinks (punch, toddy, grog) were thought to have been the MAJOR purpose for their use."
Above is were my problem lies , the "major purpose " yes in the 19th century they may well have been used for Rum , but were is the contemporary evidence, the sailors lined up at the dock in paintings , the documents from glass sellers advertising Rum glasses,yes the name is derived from a glass that was thought to have been used for white wines but they were recognized as having a large capacity bowl more than anything else , Ravenscroft made his English version of Roemers in the 17th,by the 19th c glasses of this type I am sure were used for just about anything , beer ale wine etc etc , far to many glasses have been attributed to specific drinks with very little evidence, books are great things but we have to remember that most of them are all pretty ancient and so is a lot of the information they contain,1 guy writes 50 years ago that rummers were for Rum and the others copied this and on it goes,
end of rant ,
cheers ,
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Thank you all for the informed comments! I am sure many other GMB visitors will find these of interest. I will try and source the volume on Rummers by Mills, which seems at the very least, a decent introduction tot he subject area. It appears difficult to ascribe exact dates and precise uses for such useful and popular items over such a long time. Any liquid may have been involved inside a home or public house it seems. Certainly, when reading the diaries of Pepys, when in a drinking house in the mid to late seventeenth century, he seems repeatedly more concerned with describing the main vessel containing liquid, i.e. a "quart of wormwood wine was brought to the table." The glasses used after that seem of lesser (no) interest, once the main subject had been described. This may be typical of the time in a Public House, once the main quantity and quality of drink for a group had been acquired, the shape type of actual drinking cup was of less significance, much as it is today.
Perhaps the shapes were more regional, based on regional glassmaking families, making glasses in local traditions, rather than rum, wine, water, beer, etc. having more bearing on the shape of glasses, than any other factor? I will read Mills with interest. I am impressed also that these seem English or British, as distinct from Continental contemporary examples. I will be interested to learn of their contemporary equivalents in Holland or France, to learn why these fairly rudimentary English examples would differ in appearance... A very interesting area of British glass collecting and study. Thanks again all, for providing some enlightening comment, highlighting some areas worthy of discussion...
Robert (bOBA)
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the most important question is;
Are you going to use them?
I think it would be utterly crimminal, not to. ;D
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Some little way into this link you should find the contact details for Tim Mills. The author's book is mainly concerned with decorated glasses, rather than the lesser quality inn or pub pieces, about which, of course, far less can be said.
Just in case there's any misunderstanding, Tim Mills does comment, with regard to these undecorated public house examples (more likely to be made of soda glass rather than having a lead content) that...........such pieces "probably imported from the Continent for the pub trade" - so we have to be a little careful before being too dogmatic about their origins. :) ........... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54261.msg307592.html#msg307592
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Similar glasses were manufactured in great quantities from abt. 1860 onward by the glassworks in Arques. You can find a few on each and every market in France. Not as cheap as they used to be - but very desirable. It is rare to get a set of six or seven. There is a greyish hue to these - but you need to handle them to be sure of the provenance. The number of models is mind blowing. Every time you think you have a match you'll find another model @ a sight variation.
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I've noticed that on my recent trips to the Ardingly Antiques Fair (in west Sussex U.K.), there seems to be an increasing amount of French made drinking glasses, so this might be a good place to find those of which Ivo speaks. Do you have a picture you can post Ivo, or is the difference not really apparent of the screen?
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Thank you everyone. I have really enjoyed this thread and appreciate the mixture of viewpoints. I suppose we are lucky to have so many of these survive and be appreciated as great glass. I hope to acquire a copy of Mills and learn a bit more about English drinking glasses. The diversity of shapes suggests local production teams for almost every town or city and that combined with import-export too! What a tricky research area.... but I can imagine it being an enduring and interesting one, with so many types to see and no pattern limit as such.
I have used the glasses for drinks and they are great. The balloon shaped one did appear to turn a single measure of Calvados into appearing like a quadruple due to the way the solid glass perfectly magnified it though.... otherwise very pleasant. I see no problem using a few slightly mismatched for a meal with friends...... certainly near identical would seem to be the nearest match that could be achieved! Finding eight the same, sounds like a miracle!
cheers all!
Robert (bOBA)
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So is the consensus that these are English (but similar made elsewhere)? Or not?
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I am left with the impression, very likely English, though evidently similar produced in France and elsewhere and were historically imported (exported?) too ...... the extreme variety of types of these, produced over a long time, in several locations, makes certainty difficult in most cases it seems! We have to buy the Mills volume to find out more maybe!
Robert (bOBA)
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The "Penny licks" from the same collection. Four near identical pieces. At least part moulded glass. Up the stem of the glass is a mould line. Presumably this would help guarantee exact amounts of ice cream! As far as I have read, although excellent on so many aspects of British Glass, Hajdamach on British Glass 1800-1914, barely discusses ordinary drinking glasses and things such as this. I am guessing c.1870? (I should buy a copy of Mills for the rummers but have just spent Waterstones vouchers on other glass volumes, his book not being found there).
Robert (bOBA)
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hello Robert - I suspect that Tim Mills book is available only from him direct, via the link shown earlier in this thread.
Nice collection of licks - they seem mostly to have this general shape - there appears not to be a great deal of variation. Looking at my few, some are without any visible seams (vertical) - some have two mould lines - but can't say I've seen any yet with more than two lines. Assume you're speaking of the horizontal lines - although I personally wouldn't have thought that these had any connection with the capacity of contents - I've always assumed that these things were simply filled level with the rim - I can't imagine there was remotely that the buyers would get any guarantee of an exact amount of ice cream. Most licks are without any decoration, other than a feeble moulded attempt at an imitation collar or merese where the bowl joins the stem.
You may be correct about the date you're suggesting - not easy to assess in view of the lack of book information on these things - other than to say that those pieces showing a Y or T mark (left by the shears when severing the pontil gob from the underside of the foot), will probably date to somewhere around 1870 ish to perhaps the end of the C19. Apparently they were banned in London due to the assumed problems connected with tuberculosis, but may have continued in use elsewhere for some time.......... maybe those with an entirely moulded shape date more to the end of this period.
I've attached pix of two of mine about which I'm not sure - always possible that some salts might be confused with licks. The taller example has a typical lick shape to the inside of the bowl, and might be a 4d or 6d lick (pre-decimal Sterling) - what do you think?
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Koch isolated tuberculosis in 1882; Cornet published on the nature of the spreading disease in 1888 - and the big scare came in 1889. Exit penny licks.
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thanks Ivo - good to have some technical info. which might help with dating these things. :)
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Thanks Paul and Ivo. The stems have vertical mould marks. I thought they may have been part moulded to guarantee consistent volumes of ice cream. They seem precisely accurate. However, I think I have seen a photo or engraving somewhere of these things in use and they hung from the side of the cart in some instances and perhaps the symmetrical method of manufacture looked smarter when on display prior to use. Obviously just their mass production generally could have led to mould usage!
The TB issue had not really occurred to me. The scale of tragedy at the time is hard for us to compute and the banning of these was probably wise. They are great pieces of social history though. I am not sure about the salt- penny lick glass confusion of your second piece Paul but the first looks more generous a portion than mine, there were several sizes made and yours looks like one of those, like mine, definitely designed for ice cream. I won't be using mine, you won't be surprised to hear! Display only!
Robert (bOBA)