Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: mhgcgolfclub on January 17, 2014, 01:23:39 PM
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A large cut glass urn shaped vase with a turned over rim and a square base . I believe it may be Anglo Irish cut glass and possibly Regency.
The urn is a heavy 3kg and has a grey appearance, the turned over rim is not 100% symmetrical.
The urn stands 11.5" / 29cm and the base 4.75" / 12cm.
I know items like this may have been reproduced later so any help greatly appreciated.
Roy
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A couple of more pictures.
Thanks Roy
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an impressive piece Roy - sorry to see we've all ignored you. :)
the cut decoration is typical of a style used during the late Georgian/Regency c. 1790 - 1830, although on its own this isn't proof of period - seems it's the deep cutting that takes it towards the end of the period.
Relief diamonds (they're not really, but give that impression) - fan cuts on the rim - masses of strawberry diamonds etc., but it's the cutting on the underside of the foot that appears out of place, possibly. I can find only one book example (on an Anglo-Irish piece) with this lattice decoration - as you'll know almost all feet are either lemon squeezers or star cut, with the occaisonal plain one showing a ground/polished pontil depression - and here the base decoration is used to cover the pontil scar.
Presumably you're missing the lid - these covered jars usually had them - it's mostly the larger fruit/salad bowls with turned rims that didn't.
Most of the time, these relief diamonds don't travel too well, and for obvious reasons are prone to knocks etc., which shows in the peaks being chipped, frequently. Your suggestion of a lack of symmetry - combined with wear on the diamonds and foot, plus they grey colour you mention and possible stones/seeds would help to assess if this is 'right' or not - don't know if you have any other known G/R pieces with which to compare this. I would have expected some reasonable base wear had this been from early C19 - although I know there are others who disagree with me regarding wear.
I wouldn't like to say where this was made - it seems that much English and Irish glass from that period is very similar in cut decoration, although believe there are some patterns known to be Irish - the vesica motif for example.
You don't mention if this is of lead composition, but I suspect it probably is. Think we've spoken before about the colour impurity that is reputed to have been a contaminant in the lead oxide mined from the Derbyshire area, and possibly from elsewhere. According to Adam D. (and he should know), lead oxide (in normal commercial proportions i.e. 10% - 33%), doesn't impart any colour to the glass, so when we speak of the grey colour of older cut lead glass, presumably it's the impurities only that give this effect, and not the lead oxide. I understand that some of the repro stuff from the earlier part of the C20 was provided with a grey colour, deliberately.
None of which confirms that this is period, but nonetheless a good piece, and all you need now is a lid ;)
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Thanks Paul for your reply.
I bought the urn for my wife as she had seen it at Kempton when she went with me last year. She has always had a thing about cut glass.
I am sure it completely right and quite certain there is no lid missing .
They can also be found called a Campagne urn.
I have found a number of urns and vases which do not have lids and which also have the same lattice bases , these sweetmeats in the link may also have a similar base.
http://reggiedarling.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/sweets-for-sweetmeats.html
I do not have any other similar pieces of glass to compare it with only the internet and an old 1929 Old Irish Glass book by Mrs Graydon Stannus.
There is plenty of ware to the piece mostly small nicks to the outer turned over rim which would be most prone to any damage , a few around the base. There also seems to be quite a lot of ware to the outer corner of the lattice cuts on the corners of the base
Thanks Roy
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Not my thing but how can you tell whether these are English, Irish or Bohemian? is it just something 'you know' as it were from looking at all the clues?
m
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thanks for the link Roy - glad to hear that your wife is also a fan of cut glass - all the best people are ;)
I tend to forget the web when it comes to looking for precedents, and go for my books only, and was having trouble finding much at all in the way of pieces with a lattice cut base. Am also drawing a blank in my books with regard to your reference to 'campaign urn' - might this be a more modern expression that hasn't yet filtered through to dinosaurs like me. ;) I'm well aware of campaign chests (wooden) that soldiers took with them to the Crimea confilct etc., although I'm aware that concrete/ceramic urns have been around since Roman times.
Glad to hear that you feel you're not missing a lid - I do know that most of the smaller cups/urns did have lids - often called lidded sweetmeats - I have three and they all have lids.
I would suggest that pieces with feet decorated in this manner are uncommon. When you read the books, the impression seems to be that generally speaking there isn't any specific Irish style of cutting - most of the forms of decoration can be found in glass known to be from both England and Ireland.
When English houses were taxed on their output, and prior to Ireland getting the same treatment, English workers migrated and simply continued cutting in the styles they had produced at home - thus giving rise to what we now call the Anglo-Irish style.
Mrs. G-S's book is one that I don't have - although am aware of the controversy surrounding her work and comments, so not sure how reliable the volume is. Phelps Warren's book 'Irish Glass' is good, so too is Geoffrey Wills 'English & Irish Glass', and you could try Elville's 'English & Irish Cut Glass'
So sounds as though you have a good period piece - regret I've not been to Kempton for a week or two. :)
m ... I personally can't tell whether something like this would have originated in Ireland or England - and could be vastly wrong, but not sure if Bohemia produced cut glass with this colour in the early C19. Perhaps someone else knows if that comment is correct or not.
Also believe that much of the C19 cut glass that I've seen often has a smooth flat base, unlike the starred or cut bottoms that might be found on British glass. Am sure someone will shoot me down quickly enough if I'm wrong. ;)
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Thanks Paul
When you say 'but not sure if Bohemia produced cut glass with this colour in the early C19' do you mean a particular kind of clear glass colour, or do you mean clear glass full stop?
I think I've got something similar in Das Bohmische Glas Band ll page 99,100 and 101 all produced at Neuwelt c.1837, 1835 and 1830-1835 respectively.
Heights, 31, 33 and 28 cm. The first one with an upturned rim and lid, the second with the downturned rim and lid and the third with no lid but the downturned rim.
First two are described as Zuckerschale -sugar bowl I think.
The first two with lids, both have square feet although no base shot shown and I think there is only the likelihood of one maybe having a chequered base (very difficult to tell from photo) and possibly neither have.
Cutting is not identical though there are similarities across the pieces with the above one. Number three does not have a square base though.
Described as Clear, cut, kristallglas.
Number 3 with the same rim but completely different foot, has the longer neck like OP's, the other two seem to have a body that goes straight into an overturned or upturned rim, the the lid on top.
m
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as you can probably tell m, I'm not conversant with Continental clear/cut glass from the C19............ my comment about colour was suggesting that perhaps Bohemian clear glass from the C19 doesn't have the grey tint that people associate often with British Georgian/Regency pieces.
The reason for this might be the absence of impurities within the lead oxide which wasn't used in clear glass from that area - the lead oxide apparently makes the glass easier to work and cut, whereas I believe that with the potash alkali, and no lead oxide, the glass is harder and more brittle - it does seem that Bohemian glass from the early C19 was produced to that sort of formula.
I don't have the book you mention, but am aware that some stunning clear cut pieces came from Neuwelt - and I've also just realized that this latticed cut style of foot decoration was a feature on some of their cut glass. I was beginning to wonder, bearing in mind the proportions of Roy's piece, combined with the decoration, that his urn might be Bohemian, but then is the grey colour an issue or might that fit in with Bohemian production??
I have enough difficulty with British glass :)
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eek, I have absolutely no idea about clear cut glass I'm afraid. I wouldn't know whether it viewed as slightly grey or not.
I was genuinely asking because I just opened the book to look for something else and it literally fell open at that page, me having just looked at the thread bizarrely. And they have the strange lids that look as though they are upside down footed bowl (as in the link given further up the thread) So I thought I'd mention it just in case, but I didn't want to throw a red herring in.
However there are some features on the three pieces that are similar in the cutting to the OP's .... but then for all I know, all pieces from around that era have similar cutting, as it might have been 'the vogue' regardless of where produced. That's not very helpful I know :-[ But just wanted to mention that there were similar produced from Neuwelt - just in case it's an avenue to explore maybe?
m
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Hi there, this is Roy's wife (Carol) , Roy has kindly given me permission to join in the conversation with my own thoughts on this piece and Late Regency/Early Victorian cut glass in general from England/Ireland -v- continental imports/output.
The only book we currently have on antique Irish glass is Old Irish Glass by Mrs. Graydon Stannus so we do need to get some more books on the subject as we are reduced to googling for further information. Having said that, Mrs Stannus was an expert in her field who had a breadth of knowledge on the subject, despite her underhand practices of selling known fakes and adding further cutting to "improve" pieces, which has since come to light. It would be fair to say the whole tone of her book is how to identify Old Irish Glass, written possibly by one who has superior knowledge and thought the average reader had a cats chance in hell of finding anything authentic themselves. She gives very detailed information on how to identify Victorian pieces passed off as earlier regency pieces i.e. copies and also how to distinguish bohemian imports too. There is then also the issue of design. As already mentioned design was similar across many countries relating to various eras and various mediums. Most people trained up in antiques can tell at a glance if something is mid Victorian or regency after a while at a glance from the overall look of a piece. So, regardless of whether something originated from Ireland, England or Europe it has a look about it that says 1790 at the latest, 1800 - 1830, then 1840 - 1860. It can take years to assimilate from experience, but would be fair to say that generally speaking earlier glass, particularly Georgian from 1790 is a lot plainer in finish and cut than something produced around 1850, which by that time is almost more heavily cut and much thicker, chunkier glass. This is my opinion thus far (although Im an amateur collector).
With this in mind and before I pass onto Mrs.Stannus's identification comments, I myself believe my piece to have been decorated & produced around 1840 - 1860. I don't necessarily believe it to be purely Irish in origin, but to come under the umbrella term of Anglo Irish Glass rather than continental.
Certainly earlier Irish glass from the pictures Ive seen so far are much plainer in design with either plain or star cut feet. The only examples of rollover/turnover rims being bowls, with most of the heavy cutting being on the rim. Most of the sweetmeat dishes are covered, although a lot of them have extensive cutting over the whole body of the piece. That is not to exclude however turnover Urns. Im of the opinion my piece is an Urn/Vase and did not have a lid, there is no inner ridge and the turnover would not necessitate a lid being warranted. I provide a link here to a pair of Urns similar in every way to my own piece.
http://www.reindeerantiques.co.uk/Item/118-Tea-Caddies--Other-Objects-Decorative-Items-A-pair-of-Irish-cut-glass-vases?path=search&term=glass
As you can see from the picture these Urns also have the square cuts on the underside of the bases also.
But back to Mrs.Stannus and a brief summary of her characteristics of irish Glass & identification of such, plus her description of fake pieces:-
Weight :- Generally very heavy, with the exception of course of the earlier blown pieces.
They can be distinguished from foreign imports of similar weight by the presence of minute air bubbles in the Irish pieces, whereas the foreign pieces had minute specks of sand in what she calls the "metal". She attributes this to the faulty stirring of the molten metal in Irish glass and they can be so small as to need identification with a magnifying glass if necessary.
Colour:- Irish glass has a steel grey tone. Atrributed to all the glasshouses in Ireland obtaining their materials for glassmaking from the same source. With some slight variations as follows: Cork glass sometimes had a yellowish tinge. Waterford glass having a cloudy "bloom" covering the metal which when rubbed off reappears. When it is not possible to identify the exact area to which the Irish glass originated from it was referred to in general as Munster glass, which failed to include the pieces produced in the Dublin glasshouses, which in turn also got confused for Waterford and Cork glass!.
Resilience:- So much stronger & tougher than ordinary glass and to the point it takes a quite severe blow to chip or even break it.
Warmth:- Irish glass did not feel as hard and cold as English or European glass of the same period. Very similar to the differences of between say earthenware and china to the touch.
The Ring:- Wheras English glass/crystal of the same period had a definitive ring to it, irish glass is describes as having a deeper throb/vibrato. European glass of the same period has a flatter sound or even no ring at all.
Then the question of fakes is described thus:-
Irish glass has been much copied at all periods of its production but has successfully withstood the fakers best abilities if one learns to distinguish the differences. So that although it has been made of sufficient excellence to deceive the inexperienced and unwary it cannot be be copied sufficiently well to deceive the connoisseur.
The finest reproductions from France, Belgium, Holland, Germany & Bohemia all fail in colour & texture, though credit is given to the excellent cutting of these pieces.
The first clue was in the colour of the fakes. The colour noticeably falls in the pieces, easier to spot in the taller items, leaving the tops whiter than the bases. In particular she mentions the pieces arriving from Europe, most especially from Bohemia arriving to England which are not only lighter in weight but all had a peculiar pink tinge. which become a deeper pink the larger the object became.
A lot of the fakes from all eras failed to acquire the correct weight (with the exception of the earlier Georgian blown pieces).
The earlier Georgian blown pieces from around 1735 to 1750 which were very light were quite plain and hardly cut, being mostly engraved. Whereas the faked pieces tended to forget this point and be cut all over. With the later pieces from 1790 to around 1890 when the glasshouses closed in Ireland (not including the middle period when production slumped due to the glass tax) authentic pieces got heavier and more elaborately cut, with the same uniform grey steel colour. The irish glass continued all through this period to have the minute air bubbles especially visible in the pedestal/footed clear areas, for some reason the bubbles didn't rise and were most visible in the bases of the pieces, whereas the foreign imports continued to have the specks of sand which she concludes must be a peculiarity of foreign glass & the chemical composition of the salts they used which differed to the formula used in Ireland.
Colour:- The glass of Waterford, Cork & Dublin defied the copyist more than any other. Whether this was down to the Irish formula or the atmospheric conditions in Ireland at that time she was unsure, but the copies from abroad had also noticed the differences sufficiently enough as to add thin cobalt or aquamarine in attempt to duplicate the colour, which had a tendency to settle so that the colour fell in the article slightly enough to be visible to the naked, trained eye. The irish formula for glass was lead oxide, potash soda and silica and nothing else. There should be no trace of a blue, pink or even a green tinge to the glass.
A lot of the original Irish glass was exported to America, the West Indies, Spain, Portugal , France & Belgium and extensively copied but all failed on either the colour and texture. nearly 100% off the European/Bohemian pieces either suffered from colour drop/white tops (Europe), pink tinges (Bohemia) the addition of visible Cobalt Blue (mainland Europe in general).
Hope this is of interest to people in general, I cant vouch for the accuracy of Mrs.Graydon Stannus book but it is written in depth with many examples of pictures and extensive examples of the patterns used for cutting and Roy stumbled across the book at a second hand book shop and bought it even though neither of us have any experience of Old Irish Glass but we tend to read up on different thing s and it all adds to our knowledge when collecting or buying things.
I have to say I believe my piece passes all the test Mrs.Stannus describes and I spotted it at Kempton when I went with Roy a few months ago. I normally collect antique jewellery. Ive found over the years that accompanying Roy to antique fairs he would vanish as soon as the gates opened and I would be left to amuse myself for a few hours, so I decided to collect antique jewellery. However ive always had a fondness for cut glass and we have some wonderful pieces of American brilliant, but basically my dinnerware/drinking glasses all tend to be vintage Waterford, Royal Brierly etc... just 20thc stuff but lovely things anyway to use. However I do love neo classical/Georgian things I just cant afford it!
But when I walked past this particular stall at Kempton that Urn spoke to me and said "Look at me, Im beautiful" I couldn't walk past, but I didn't have the £90 they wanted , then it wasn't there for a few months as the stall holders were ill & then xmas came and finally Roy asked them did they still have it and they brought it along and called him over the next time they spotted him , which was very kind of them and bless them they didn't up the price, he knocked them down to £75 which I think is a good price for what it is as I have no intention of selling it & have no real idea of what it would sell for if I got bored of it. Knowing my luck on Ebay Id be lucky to get 50 quid.
Anyway Roy brings home so much glass and I get lengthy lectures on price/value/maker etc that Ive learnt all about glass accidentally :)
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Thank you so much for sharing your observations and all the information! a fascinating read and very interesting.
It sounds a very complex area of glass collecting :o
m
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hi Carol - welcome to the GMB. By the sound of it you have the sort of enthusiasm that we need - suggest we ditch Roy and keep you ;) ;D Hope to hear from you again.
As said, I don't have Mrs. G.S. book, so can't really comment, but might suggest you put 'Mrs. Graydon Stannus' into the Board's search and read past comments regarding this lady's output.
The books that I mentioned yesterday or whenever, are worth getting, and will help a lot with information regarding English/Irish cut glass from the period in question.
Wish you luck, and remember that the best reason for buying a piece is because you like it. :)
P.S. I did suggest to Roy some time back, that he might care to pop in one Tuesday on his way back from Kempton - you cud then 'come up and see my cut glass' ;)
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Hi Paul, thank you for the welcome :) I do tend to only buy things I like and would use around the house or think I could keep as an heirloom to hand down to the children and tbh it could be in any category of collecting such as glass, jewellery, china, metalwork (both copper & pewter), watches & clocks. Most of my stuff comes from local charity shops or flea markets, antique shops and only the occasional antiques fair in the past.
Collecting for me is slightly trickier than for Roy, Roy predominantly buys with a view to selling so can justify the expense, whereas when I collect it comes out of my part time wages and in the past it rightly was spend on the children first, however the "children" are now 16,18 & 22 and only one at school still, so nowadays although Ive more money for collecting, the urge to collect is dwindling as I get older, mainly because we have a house full, but it is still nice to pick up odds & ends and I enjoy going round the fairs and shops, its always a nice day out.
I accompanied Roy to Kempton a few months ago , however it is a very early start at 6.30am. Thank you also for the book suggestions yesterday, ive found 2 at a cheap price on Ebay and bought them yesterday so thank you, the only one I couldn't find was the Phelps Warren.
Roy and I would love to pop in another day (after going to Kempton) to see your glass collection :) that is very kind & generous of you and I will make sure Roy takes you up on this invite as he is a little shy, look forward to meeting you one day.