Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ohio on February 05, 2014, 09:05:04 PM
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[Mod: This topic has been created out of additional comments originally appended to a thread about a queried Galle cameo vase - see http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55574.0.html]
Personally I think English Cameo is the finest not to take anything away from Galle, its just a matter of personal choice. Everyone has probably seen this from the Corning museum, but if not I think its worth looking through.
http://d3seu6qyu1a8jw.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/collections/DA/DAD1DEEE-4B86-491B-B804-69C7B1F46B40.pdf
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I love that book.
It's funny though isn't it, how different things appeal. I can see the exquisiteness of those pieces, the immaculate beauty in the designs and subjects, the perfection in the way they are made and how absolutely stunning they are.
But for me, these have the greatest appeal :) (you need to scroll down to see the vases)
http://naturalisticspoon.com/Emile_Galle.html
m
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Not my thing at all, Ohio - I just feel... "eeeek more boring Wedgwoody stuff", can't get past it quick enough.
(I spent far too much of my childhood being dragged around castles and chateaus and churches and that sort of thing, saw more than enough ormalu and classical greek/roman stuff for a lifetime, by the age of 10. Overkill put me off.)
Give me the Galle. :)
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Hi ,
My vote goes to English cameo glass , its not all Wedgwoody stuff !!!.
cheers ,
Peter
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Woodall was the master ! ;D ;D
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I understand Sue...I was raised in a house that had several hundred pieces of Roseville, Weller & older Wedgwood so I am guilty of being a Jekyll & Hyde. I cannot stand pottery/porcelain, to this day but when its carved on glass I am in awe of the hand craftmanship it took to achieve the result.
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I'm a hot-worked glass person, I'm not really into cold-worked at all.
I understand the level of skill required, but rarely see the point of doing it on glass.
The whole point of glass (to me) is it's clarity and fluidity, it's ability to capture a sculpture of colour, frozen in a moment of time.
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HI,
??? I thought Galle et al were cold worked .
cheers ,
Peter
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But Galle looks fluid - I was being general, Peter. :-*
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I feel if we are adding examples that it's a must to include some from 1855 - c.1860's done in Bohemia. To me, they are simply superb.
Especially the three layer examples, blue over white over clear. There are some examples in red which I'll add if I can find. Just to re-iterate, these were made in the 1850's and 1860's and indeed the the first one was made in 1855.
The first one which is the goblet at the V&A is actually a huge piece and I don't think their photos do it quite justice really. I'll try and find some clearer closer ones as the clear background on this is all completely engraved with swirls which you don't see on their pics iirc.
Amazing works of art - do take a look :)
Large chalice at the V & A 1855
Franz Paul Zach
http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/g/glass-goblet-by-franz-paul-zach/
Josephinenhutte covered pokal c.1860’s I think
http://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-2w-zelasko-schaffgotsch.pdf
covered goblet c.1860 Corning Museum att. Karl Pfohl probably
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/covered-goblet-5
pokal c.1855
http://www.dorotheum.com/typo3temp/pics/a252d97b19.jpg
Copy of the Portland Vase
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/copy-portland-vase
Franz Paul Zach 1862
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20942/lot/1502/
Att. Franz Paul Zach c.1860
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The work is amazing - I just wish they'd use it to do images that I'd actually enjoy looking at. :'(
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My computer keyboard is shorting out from all of my drool falling on it. These are all exceptional, though I am in the Galle camp as for those being my personal favorites.
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Sue I agree, I'm not keen on some of the images, but honestly the V&A goblet is superb and very beautiful
A couple of my favourites are the unidentified pokal I linked to at the Dorotheum
and I love this red one here
http://www.auktion-bergmann.de/ufItemInfo.aspx?a_id=73&i_id=169286&s_id=6104
and this one is simply fab
you need to scroll down once linked and it is the red becher - click on it and it enlarges and shows detail :)
http://www.prazskagalerie.cz/en/news/from-editorial/crisis-and-boom-in-glass-and-jewellery-industry-1
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I'd rather be looking at fantastical chimeras, or something a bit more Bosch-y.
The beaker man does look a bit like a very bad-tempered, drunken Beethoven though!
Getting a little Breugel-y, slightly more to my taste. There's a bit of humour there. ;)
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Superb examples all around. Although not cameo, the Shell – flacons box, 1840-1860 was an educational eye opener...Czech version of Palais Royale Grand Tour stuff.
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I am biased - look at http://www.gordonstudio.com.au/art_glass_gallery.html and in particular look at Kevin's work, Alisdair & Rish's folios. Eileen probably blows the glass for them. Grant her husband makes LARGE pieces but neither of them engrave to my knowledge. By the way their eldest boy Hamish Donaldson is already sell pwts ( I have one).
Ross
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Ohio, it's amazing isn't it? This is my (damaged at the top) version of the blue over white over clear cameo. My treasure :)
m
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I'm a big fan of Chris Ainslie's work...
http://www.ainslieglass.co.uk/gallery.html
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It's funny - I handle a lot of cameo glass and I have to start with a list of Cameo glass that I'd REALY like to like but find not to my taste
-almost anything English
-anything post 1945
-Le verre/charder/Schneider
so my 'best' list is a very personal taste -and might surprise
1. D'Argental/Paul Nicolas
2. Emile Galle
3. Harrach
4. Daum
5. Riedel
6. Goldberg
cheers
all
M
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I also love some of the work from
Burgun Schverer & Cie
Particularly the very colourful ones :)
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11757937_burgun-schverer-and-cie-cameo-glass-vase
Desire Christian Verrerie d'Art de Lorraine
http://www.pinterest.com/Casatimn/glass~fr~burgun-schverer/
but then there is also this from Thomas Webb that I think is one of my all time favourites
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/gourd-vase?page=2&query=thomas%20webb&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=bs_has_image%20desc%2Cscore%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=85
m
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Thanks to everyone for the links to modern day makers. I think they are all beautiful and their makers are very talented, but I do not think they truly compare to the art of Emile Galle. I don't know why modern glass of all kinds leaves me feeling that somehow the secrets of the masters of the past have been lost and never quite 100% recovered, but that is my personal thought.
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Flying free
love your examples - but some have got a lot more going on than just classic cameo techniques. -not that there is anything wrong with that.
M
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Mike, yes I know, but that is probably where the attraction is for me :)
It's not comparing like with like, agreed.
But, the techniques used include cameo and make each object so exquisite. I suppose I love those pieces that are cameo and ... internally decorated/enamelled etc.
However my blue and white is solely cameo and the use of the layers of glass and I love that also.
m
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At times I believe you have to be realistic & when it comes to cameo or just about anything else...things change & evolve & if they don't then they face extinction. Designs/styles/subject matter/techniques do change over times & its not that any secrets have been lost, its simply changed because what was popular a century ago is certainly not popular now & what is popular now is what sells in the "new" market. Sometimes its easy to forget that the production of just about everything we know is after all tied to a business & when its a business decision then you produce what sells in todays market...not a market a century ago.
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And nobody is prepared these days to pay for the work of master craftsmen, who have to train for donkey's years to attain the level of expertise used in eg. Galle.
Business and profit depends entirely on the lowest posssible quality and the maximum possible price, driving quality down the plughole.
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Our very own Helen Millards work would keep me happy ,
;D
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My theory on why the craftsmanship was better in the " old days"is they started training at a much younger age and were a lot less self conscious about what they made. :)
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There is some exquisite contemporary cameo work around I think - complicated, pushing boundaries and beautiful (I just cant' afford any of the major pieces I love, old or new unfortunately).
I do have a big love of old work though. Partly because they were experimenting with new colours, overlays, the hand carved pieces etc and it was all 'new' developments in techniques, new colours for the glass, new colours for enamels etc. But along with that, I also covet pieces that will never be made again - the makers are long gone, the colours will not be the same again, they were firsts of their time. (I feel the same about old textiles and embroidery )
Of course now, it is also new developments of old techniques, and contemporary makers are taking those ideas in exciting directions as always. There are a few contemporary pieces I would just love to own. Maybe one day ...
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Terry L Colledge
See also http://www.terricolledgeglass.com/PortlandVase.html (http://www.terricolledgeglass.com/PortlandVase.html) Recreation 2012 recreation of the Roman Vase.
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In the U.S. the vast (and I do mean vast) majority of contemporary cameo produced during the past 30+ years (thousands of pieces) has been by the duo of Kelsey Murphy and Robert Bomkamp. They started in 1982 under the firm Glass Expectations Inc. then in 1988 moved to Pilgrim glass & when they closed they went to Fenton for several years. They now have a studio in WV called Vision of Heaven, but I think their run is slowly ending as just yesterday there was an auction that stated the largest number of their pieces from their working together was held. They are the undisputed best known contemporary cameo artists in the U.S. Unfortunately though glass no matter what type is basically ignored by the under 30s crowd & even those in the mid/late 30s to early 40s pay little attention to glass these days.
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That is really sad.
Is there any way of promoting it to the younger audience?
After all, America is responsible for the birth of the Studio Glass Movement, an entire new genre of art, it should be something that is shouted about from the rooftops!
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PBS has a series on made in america crafts, but it is on PBS which is not widely seen by younger audiences and I am not sure I entirely agree with many of their selections of crafts people to showcase.
It is not just glass, but also other art forms such as silver smithing where there are few places left where it goes on and even fewer young people interested in putting in the years of apprenticeship. Art pottery is in there as well. In my personal opinion what is coming out these days not only from glass studios but silver and art pottery and paintings and so on just does not have the same level of breathtaking results that you see in the old stuff. You can become competent with years of experience, but the big name old stuff is more than the product of competent crafts people, it is high art and for that you need a very large number of competent practicioners to get one or two real master artists. For example, how many names like Galle or Tiffany are there from their era vs. how many crafts people were there?
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We all have very different tastes - thankfully - or we'd all be after the same things! ;D
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That is really sad.
Is there any way of promoting it to the younger audience?
After all, America is responsible for the birth of the Studio Glass Movement, an entire new genre of art, it should be something that is shouted about from the rooftops!
Major problem is we have no major glass producers left except Blenko. L.E. Smith & Fenton & Steuben are now defunct although the Fenton factory (only) now owned by the U.S. Glass Co. may reopen the plant & make commercial glass for Walmart, but Fenton family is not involved. Most of our new glass in now imported. The studio industry I believe has had its day although there are a few of the larger commercial studio operations such as Lundberg Studios that are doing quite well, but the smaller operations that started a couple of decades ago are...well I'll be polite here...shrinking. I mean if you compare studio ops whats left compared with even a decade ago... probably 90% are gone. Thats not to say though that new ventures do not start, they do, but with questionable chances of survival.
Bottom line is it has little to do with craftsmanship, designs, big names, etc. it has everything to do with the indisputable fact that the younger crowd under 35 does not give two hoots about anything glass except they can buy it at Target or Walmart & I think I am on pretty solid footing here with 38 years experience in glass collecting/buying/selling in the U.S. We have fully embraced the "I" you name it 21st century electronics civilization.
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I've been searching for a better reference for this amazing cameo pokal from Josephinenhutte.
This is a better picture which enlarges, plus a full description from the Passau Glass Museum.
If I have read the description correctly, it says that Josephinenhutte was producing this kind of cameo work from 1846!
using google translate on the article the quote translates directly as:
'Josephinenhütte had started very early to make such wonderful relief cut engravings. This has been demonstrated already in 1846 and documented even by a personal letter of Count Schaffgotsch.(Compare Mainardus 1909) The first glass was made after a glass vase by Prof. tooth in Pompei found in a grave next to the Casa delle quattro times Colonne a Musaico.'
(please go to the link to see the original description untranslated)
http://www.glasmuseum.de/index.php?id=1316&L=
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According to some of the suppliers in the studio glass business, there are actually several thousand small studios operating in the US. Most are not of the magnitude and high production of some of those from the 70's and 80's. Most go about doing their marketing in different ways than the earlier ones, but if you attend the Rosen wholesale craft market show in the winter and the summer, you'll see many glass studios represented. IN the late 70's there were only about 350-450 studios in the US. A lot of the studios now market thru the high end galleries and if you watch what they have for sale at SOFA you would be amazed. Works by the real artists are only sold thru a group of high end galleries. If you get the chance sometime check out the gift shop at the Corning Museum of Glass and you'll find some of the best contemporary glass in the world from a multitude of small studios and producers in the US. Many of these studios are have a very small staff, but what they produce is fantastic.
I agree the days of the big studios and factories are a thing of the past.
The younger crowd does spend a lot of money on glass though, but it is in a somewhat underground market known as the "pipe market". It's amazing how much money is spent on pipes and what some of them sell for. The flame working segment of the glass industry has developed and has 1000's of people producing and some of it is amazing. Paul Stankard has written several papers on this subject and has been overwhelmed at what is being produced.
I also agree that the younger generation has entirely different attitudes towards personal possessions and the things they value. Technology has changed our view of the world. How many of us have saved that 1st computer we paid 1000's of dollars for in the 80's. who even bothers to keep the one they had several years ago and phones are another good example. I'm really old and can't grasp all of this but wish I was young enough and savy enough to be on the development end of the 3-D glass printers. In the next 25 years, who knows what kind of paperweights may be produced on these machines.
Major problem is we have no major glass producers left except Blenko. L.E. Smith & Fenton & Steuben are now defunct although the Fenton factory (only) now owned by the U.S. Glass Co. may reopen the plant & make commercial glass for Walmart, but Fenton family is not involved. Most of our new glass in now imported. The studio industry I believe has had its day although there are a few of the larger commercial studio operations such as Lundberg Studios that are doing quite well, but the smaller operations that started a couple of decades ago are...well I'll be polite here...shrinking. I mean if you compare studio ops whats left compared with even a decade ago... probably 90% are gone. Thats not to say though that new ventures do not start, they do, but with questionable chances of survival.
Bottom line is it has little to do with craftsmanship, designs, big names, etc. it has everything to do with the indisputable fact that the younger crowd under 35 does not give two hoots about anything glass except they can buy it at Target or Walmart & I think I am on pretty solid footing here with 38 years experience in glass collecting/buying/selling in the U.S. We have fully embraced the "I" you name it 21st century electronics civilization.