Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: brucebanner on February 11, 2014, 10:21:54 PM
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I picked this up today i thought at first it was pottery but i'm pretty sure it's glass i can not find any info on it, can anyone help?, there were two other creamers with it i think both are by Sowerby but i can not find the patterns for them either all are unmarked which has not helped. regards Chris. :'(
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It's 3 1/2 inches in height.
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fractures in/on glass, should produce very smooth surfaces, as opposed to ceramics where presumably the breaks would show grainy/porous surfaces - but if you can't bring yourself to break it... ;D ;D
I would have thought the foot rim should give the answer - or perhaps try a steel blade on the base somewhere.
Can't help with provenance etc., other than to say it doesn't look very Sowerby ish. You have what appears to be a grape and vine decoration - so wonder if there is an alcohol connection somewhere - not the sort of image you'd expect on a milk/cream jug.
I wonder also if the lower busts/figures are related in some way. The handle makes me think it has some age (assuming it's genuine), and I'll take a punt and suggest - vaguely - Bohemian ;)
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I have scratched this with a steel blade and it leaves a grey mark that can be wiped off, i found it with these two bits, (i'll put a pick on after this), it has no damage anywhere sods law, but mould marks front to back also the numbers 42 ive noticed stamped into the rim off the base. I don't really want to smash it up as i think it's mid Victorian what ever it is.
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I think it's ceramic. Can you see light through it?
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Going by the photos I would say it is a type of ceramic called creamware.
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I’m not sure about the jug in the opening post, but I’m pretty sure that the creamer on the right in reply #3 is Henry Greener, Sunderland, unregistered design dating to 1875-1885ish. (I think I have reference photo of a matching creamer somewhere, and will post it if I can locate it).
I don’t recognise the creamer on the left in reply #3 as a Sowerby pattern, but the ropework handle is not dissimilar to those found on several Edward Moore pieces.
Fred.
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Isn't this vitro-porcelain ? ??? ;D
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Yes you can see light through it, i'm looking at this vitro- porcelain and to an old post on this board to which the base looks very similar. I'm not sure if i can quote old posts but here is the link, (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/normal_DSCF1335.jpg), also Walter Crane's "oranges and lemons" flower trough looks similar, but i have not got that to hand.
First time i have ever heard of this Vitro-Porcelain i just assumed the old bits of milk glass i have got from Sowerby were glass. Do you think i should post the other two jugs separate? i don't like filling the board up and i have hundreds of bits i'm not sure on i would like to find out information on.
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Bone china is also transluscent, but isn't glass. ;) Real Vitro-Porcelain should be opaque, and will probably show mould seams somewhere (I think)
The name Vitro-Porcelain is misleading, perhaps, to folk who might have little experience of C19 pressed glass. It isn't porcelain but glass (the give away is in the Vitro bit), and being opaque and frequently coloured does have the appearance of china/porcelain.
Sowerby are credited with the invention of 'Vitro-Porcelain', and its success was due possibly to the fact that whilst cheap to produce, it imitated the more expensive genuine porcelain that the working classes couldn't afford.
I've never tried making weight comparisons between real china and Vitro-Porcelain, but would imagine the glass form to be heavier than the china equivalent.
No problem in quoting or linking to old posts by the way. :)
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You can sometimes tell from the base,if it's high fired porcelain they would have to have removed the glase from the foot ring to stop it sticking to the kiln shelves or it may have been on tiny props that leave small scars.
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The jug is the same uniform texture all the way around the outside and base, there are no changes in the surface even on the base and the inside is completely smooth.
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Can you feel the pattern on the inside?
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My understanding is that vitro-porcelain is a particular type of opaque glass made by Sowerby (which was manufactured like glass, and had many of the properties of glass, but had a composition and appearance similar to porcelain) and which first appeared in 1877. Its properties made it particularly suitable for press moulding into decorative pieces. Initially it appeared in a pale turquoise blue colour in imitation of fashionable blue Chinese porcelain, but other colours were produced soon afterwards (most commonly seen being white or black).
Other British manufacturers of pressed glass wares also produced pieces using their own versions of opaque coloured glass (which are commonly often referred to as ‘vitro-porcelain’) though I personally think that the term ‘vitro-porcelain’ should be reserve for attributed Sowerby pieces as its composition was particular to them.
As to two creamers shown here, what’s wrong with simply calling them opaque white glass?
The term ‘milk glass’ seems to be applied to a whole range of opaque or translucent coloured glasses and, rather like the term’vaseline glass’, leaves itself open to a whole range of interpretations.
Fred.
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Yes you can feel lots of depressions on the inner surface especially with the figures, not so with the vines, they seem very smooth, the figures seem like they have been pushed into a mould also the inner base is domed shaped and very thick.
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In that case I suggest it's slip moulded porcelain. Pressed glass would be smooth on the inside (the plunger is smooth with things like this) and I don't think you could mould blow with a handle like that. If the handle had not been moulded but hand applied, I would have gone with glass
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I think you might be right i would hate to waste anymore time on a piece of pot, it looks like it's a two piece mould and the handle has been stuck on after as the mold line for the handle and jug do not line up, i'll put up some more picks to show this.
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More pics
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I'm even more convinced by the little flecks in the glaze
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Chris and Fred
The creamer on the left in reply #3 is Henry Greener, I have the creamer and matching sugar bowl is a very nice blue slag glass and both pieces have the Greener trade mark. Will start a new post to show both pieces later.
Roy
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Thank you, Roy.
Fred.
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Looks like salt-glazed stoneware.
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well that should be an easy surface effect to confirm - isn't it supposed to resemble the slightly pitted looks of an orange peel skin??
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well that should be an easy surface effect to confirm - isn't it supposed to resemble the slightly pitted looks of an orange peel skin??
You would need a strong magnifying glass to see that i think. Just looking at the close-up of the handle i can see some pitting or bumps, not sure.
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should add that I don't do pottery or ceramics seriously, so not really qualified to comment, but have read that was the sort of surface effect on salt-glaze - and didn't get the impression you needed a magnifying glass. Haven't really been following this one - but also didn't think that salt-glaze surfaces looked this white ish.??
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should add that I don't do pottery or ceramics seriously, so not really qualified to comment, but have read that was the sort of surface effect on salt-glaze - and didn't get the impression you needed a magnifying glass. Haven't really been following this one - but also didn't think that salt-glaze surfaces looked this white ish.??
It might depend on how fine the salt is, it's not really my area.
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regret I'm rather low than high 'tech', but not sure I understand the need to repeat then entire text of the previous poster :)
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It's two lines long...
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Salt glaze can be very white and without much texture depending on the clay,a high alumina content will cause an orange peel effect where as a high silica content will produce a flatter surface.
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the number of lines doesn't seem to matter - just that I'd seen this happen on occasions before and wondered if in my ignorance of pc matters it was for a particular reason of which I was ignorant. :)
bat, I bow to your knowledge of ceramics. :)
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My original post is pottery, that was resolved months ago, even after owning thousands of pieces of glass it was tricky to tell it apart, this post should have been dead and buried ages ago, done and dusted, pottery.
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After my previous post i feel a stupid showing this, i have found one in blue but not sure if there are any others on here.
The surface is pitted, it has small speckles of dirt in the glass, cracks and the base and plate have the Sowerby mark.
I think this would be described as a cake stand?.
The stand is six inches in height, 5 1/2 inches across the rim and the plate 9 3/4 inches across the rim, the two together have a total height of 7 inches.
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I like it - useful and not that common I don't think - looks to be something from the factory's June 1882 pattern book IX.
Images of this may well appear in other places, but having just a quick look it's certainly in Sheilah Murray's volume on pressed glass 'The Peacock and the Lions'
The lady comments..............""The basket weave pattern etc. etc.......... Two varieties of plate were produced - one larger and deeper which was sold with a separate three footed stand (Plate 17), the other was a shallower plate without a stand. Plates were made in various colours but pale blue slag and white are the colours often found nowadays and only occasionally are black, coloured malachite, olive green or iridescent examples available.""
Basket weave pattern plates (presumably the shallow type) have been consistently quite common over the years when rummaging at boot sales, in the U.K., but I don't recall seeing the stand.
There's no mention of the word cakes, but would imagine that was a common use for these, especially when the stand is incorporated - perfect for French Fancies.
Not sure, but I'd imagine there's a picture on the Thistlewood CD catalogue. Don't specifically see the word 'stand' in Simon Cottle's booklet under 1882, so perhaps just included with the word 'dish' of which there are two in that year.
P.S. Had a look in the Kew Archives, but don't see this pairing or even the dishes on their own. This is Fred's area rather than mine, but taking a bit of an educated guess - since it's quite possible that the basket weave pattern may have been Registered some time earlier than these dishes were produced, the factory didn't then see the need to Registered other shapes, with basket weave, which were produced later etc.
I'll have a look on the CD catalogue some later unless someone beats me to it.
P.P.S. This last item will be better in British Glass.
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Not in the Sowerby pattern book IX (1882) as such, but from their pattern no. 1102 (an unregistered design shown on page 1 of pattern book IX).
Shown in detail on the Thistlewood Sowerby CD-ROM catalogue Vol. 3 – ‘Sowerby Glass in Pictures’, Index Page 1:
Another ‘basketweave’ pattern, was given the same list no. (1102) as the novelty/spill vases.
The top and base are separate, and there are two styles of top – a flattish plate, and a cupped-up bowl shape. They have been found with the top and base glued together, but whether this was done at the factory or later, is unclear.
The bases not only matched the tops – they were also sold separately as pin trays.
See several other examples at
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/thumbnails.php?album=1001&page=9
Fred
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Thanks Fred, i got the Victorian vol one today, will get the third vol next.
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The jug is not this stuff is it?
I say 'this stuff' because I don't know what 'it' is. It is Victorian and you see, or used to see many pieces of it around, either in white/cream, salmon pink and possibly blue, sometimes with guilded decoration. I have a swan in this material which feels and rings like glass, but is not quite, it is almost as if very finely crushed glass is used to make the base material. It is not pressed into a mould as most of the designs are too complicated to be made that way, and there are a lot of different designs.
A few years ago David Hill, who ran the Pressed Glass List (who remembers that?) told me the name of the manufacturer, which I have long since forgotten.
I have often thought it would be a good thing to collect because it is cheap and there are many different and interesting designs. Just a shame we don't know material or the manufacturer.