Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on February 16, 2014, 09:31:19 PM
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I'm hoping someone can help me out either with a pattern number or, confirmation of the shape and design of the vase on page 53 of Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass.
It is the vase on the left in the bottom right hand corner of the page.
The plate description says
'Plate 101. Vase, whisky tumbler and wine glass enamelled and gilt by Jules Barbe for Thomas Webb and Sons c.1901-10. The vase was a gift from Jules Barbe to his daughter who kindly donated it to the former Thomas Webb works museum. The whisky tumbler,in the 'cascade' moulded pattern, is Pattern no 25681 for 1901. Height of vase 4in. (10.2cm).'
I can normally find many of the references from that book online, but this one it nowhere to be found so I cannot show an online image I'm afraid.
My query is I can find the trailed decor( I mean the spiral glass trailing not the gilding) on this vase, I believe for Stuart, dated 1912 (I don't know if it appeared earlier, that is the earliest I have). But I haven't matched the shape of the vase to a Stuart shape as yet. The vase is captioned Thomas Webb, so did Webb also do the same 'spaced spiral trail winding tightly round the neck of the rim' decor?
I'm asking because I have two 'drop head dab tail' peacock eye style vases in the same gilded pattern, and I am sure they are by Jules Barbe (one detail is, the rose on the vase in the book is created in a specific way and my vases are done in exactly the same way, along with other things such as the very high quality of the gilding and that it matches the design on the vase in the book), but I think they were made for Stuart. I believe I have a pattern match for my vases.
I have found two other vases with this gilding that I also believe are Stuart but I cannot provide a definitive shape match at the moment. I'm waiting for a piece of information that might help with this.
Is it conceivable that Barbe would have provided the same pattern for both Stuart and Webb? I know he decorated for Stuart after 1901 when he had his own business.
Or is it conceivable that the vase on page 53 might be a Stuart vase perhaps?
The 'Drop head dabs' are applied in a very specific way on my vases. I think they are applied as a perfectly round 'pad' and then the trail is applied having been joined under the dab. They have a 'line shadow' in the glass on all of them. This is not an internal crack. It is where the trail was very neatly applied.
There is a bowl in the V&A that has a query over it's maker from what I read. It says the bowl was 1904 and originally given the name 'Dewdrop'. It was initially identified as Whitefriars apparently, but this was changed to say definitely not Whitefriar's might be Stuart. This bowl is very plain in design but has a number of these dab trails around it it, straight on, not 'drop head style'. They are applied in the same way and they have the same 'internal line shadow' on the dabs.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6709/dewdrop-finger-bowl-stuart-sons-ltd/
The other point is that the trails on the vase go right to the bottom, over the merese and then 'fold under it' ie. the foot is then applied. I have seen other vases that are Stuart that I believe have the same thing. But either I can't get close enough pictures to demonstrate for sure, or when I do have close pictures I can't give you a shape match and pattern number because my resources are limited - and irritatingly,although I do have about 30 - 40 or more designs that I believe I have Stuart pattern numbers for, they are not in them.
Thanks for any help or insight.
m
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ok, I hope I've solved my problem.
This is my sketch of the Jules Barbe vase he gave to his daughter that features on page 53 in CH's 20th century British Glass.
I hope it's ok for me to do this?
So, the vase is completely clear, the trails are formed starting from under the base around the pontil mark. I have seen a number of vases with this trailing that I believe have Stuart Pattern numbers (matched to a catalogue page that has the same pattern Number in sequence I think). But the one I want, i.e. this one, is not there. Of the ones that feature, there are some with fluted rims and trailing and some with straight rims like this one and this lovely trailing. There just isn't one with this diablo shape there. Of course there can be a number of reasons for that, a) because it is an earlier piece and perhaps discontinued by the time of the cat I'm looking at (past 1910), the vase in the book is dated c.1901-1910, b) or because they didn't stock it at that point or c) or I don't have the page it was featured on.
But the features of the vase are all very similar to Stuart pieces. The body shape, the rim, the trailing design, and the way the trailing goes under the base and finishes (or starts) at the pontil mark etc. , clear trailing on clear body, all point to Stuart.
As on my vase, each panel has the same decorated pattern in it, repeated, roses and leaves the same as my vase. The roses and leaves are gilded in exactly the same way as those on my vase. I believe the rim is gilded and in the same way as mine has rubbing and wear to the gilding. The thickness of the vase looks the same.
Any help on sorting this out very much appreciated.
many thanks
m
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This won't answer your question m, but it is Stuart and has a very similar gilding pattern/technique and the dabs are hidden under the rim... if you look hard enough :D I know you have probably seen it before on your searches but at least it illustrates the same gilding.....
http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/footed-trumpet-vase-ca-1905/#.UwJqAdJdVJ1
ta MIke.
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yes :) I didn't put it on, but I also believe it is by Jules Barbe for Stuart.
However, I can't match that shape either at the moment so I didn't add it.
I also think one other pair of vases on this board are as well but I'm waiting for Adam to add some more pictures as that might prove the catalyst for all 4 shapes.
Thanks Mike :)
m
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Oh that's good ;)
Interestingly, in 'Art ,Feat and Mystery' (The story of Thomas Webb & Sons, Glassmakers) 1978 by H W Woodward.. he says " In 'raised' gilt , gold (in a dissolved state) was made into a brown paste , which was painted onto a glass and fired in a specially constructed muffle, two, three or four times. The gilding was finally burnished with spun glass brushes and agate or bloodstone. The secret of Barbe's preparation died with him. " .
Woodward also states that it was Jules Barbe at Webb's and Oscar Pierre Erard at Stevens and Williams who were responsible for the innovation at the time . So Jules Barbe had something of a monopoly on the technique and seeing that he didn't share his secrets, then the only person who could have carried out the gilding on your vase seems to be Jules Barbe (freelance, 1900) :D
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:-* thank you for adding all that.
That's what I thought - and I do look at a LOT of enamel and gilded glass but this is something quite different in quality. But I hit a hitch when I matched my vase to a Stuart shape. Then saw the one on the Bristol Museum site which I am also sure is Stuart (and Adam P's as well, but need a full photo of those). However I'm more than convinced that the vase in the book is Stuart as well (she whispers). I just need a pattern match to it or one of the others so mine is not the only one. Of course, I could be very, very wrong then I'll have to hide away for a while :)
Actually, thinking it through ...
I suppose that means my vases would be Thomas Webb and that they did the same decor and shape design as Stuart. So it's a win win either way ;D
Do you recommend that book? Are there any jugs in it with applied lizard handles, or goblets btw?
m
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I knew you would know all of this , I just had to add it for general info. because I didn't know about it ...but I had read the book and completely forgot ! ::)
It's only a small volume (61 pages, ISBN 0 9506439 04, Mark + Moody Ltd. ) and most of the photos are on the internet or in other books... There are no applied lizards anywhere to be seen :( There is a small photo of three gilt Barbe enamel wines/goblets though... plus that fab. Loving cup !
It is a very good introduction to the story of Webbs and the author (as you know) was curator at Brierly Hill Glass Museum from 1938 to 1966, he increased their collection from 200 to 800 pieces and built up a reference library there.
Hope you can find those patterns , the Bristol Blue Glass (on-line) Museum certainly think theirs is Stuart :D
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Well I only know it because I've also had a good re-read of CH 20th Century British glass and his older book, trying to dig out some info :)
To be honest, I'm a little bit wary of using that Bristol website to id glass because there are never any references or sources given to their id's although they have some lovely glass. The descriptions are all a bit short without references. I like to use Broadfield House Gorgeous Glass site and also the V&A (but the V&A have loads of un-photographed glass, in fact so do BH, which is so annoying).
There is also a Bristol Museum I have come across that has all sorts of stuff in it, including some amazing Chinese glass, that I use sometimes. Do you know about that one. I came across it quite by accident .
Thanks for searching the book for me. Yes, I've seen the goblets (courtesy of Keith - thank you :) ), I think I'd found one or two of them online. That amazing gilded loving cup... yes that's beautiful. Broadfield House have it and if you go online you can click on it and it magnifies to an amazing extent so every pixel of the gilding can be seen. It's quite incredible. Obviously my vases are not so mind-boggling, but then mine have applied lilypads and the cup only has handles lol.
I'm currently searching for lizards as well :) I think I have another bowl by Barbe - well, I hope so ;D
Thanks so much for taking the time to investigate and write the book info Mike. I appreciate it.
m
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It's a pleasure m , I enjoy reading your threads but I don't wish to interrupt much 'cus of my lack of knowledge.
You must be very happy with your Barbe vases... even I can see the quality shouting at me through my screen 8)
I know the Bristol Museum well as I live here in good olde Bris'ol ;D Well worth a visit , they have a great paperweight collection too ! ;)
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I'm wary of the Bristol Glass Museum attributions too. This strikes me as just tosh "Decorated with a typical patterns of ferns and leaves, the quality of the glass unmistakably points to its maker" when apparently describing a Walsh Walsh item.
It may of course be that Barbe didn't do all the gilding, he may just have prepared the secret paste
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The gilding on my vases is superb and matches the gilding on the vase he gave to his daughter. The gilding on the probable Stuart vase in the Bristol museum is also superb, and I have no reason so far, to think he didn't gild them himself.
Reading the pages 322-327 in Charles Hadamach's British Glass 1800-1914 there is no evidence to suggest M. Barbe did not do the gilding and enamelling himself. On the contrary, there is more evidence to support that he did, within those pages.
Prior to 1901 he was working for Thomas Webb with his son, and I believe iirc there was a decorating department.
After that he set up independently and I have not read anything to suggest he had people working with him. Indeed the an article within those pages suggests that gilding and enamelling had fallen out of favour.
And a brief exerpt from
from that article written in 1905 printed in the book-
'It is true that gilding and painting was well known in this country when M. Jules Barbe settled down (my words - he arrived in 1879), but for reasons which it is difficult to find out this kind of decorative art was gradually dropped by those manufacturers in whose works it was done, and M. J. Barbe is now the only representative of it in this district, and of this particular line in the country'.
It actually makes a point within the article of saying that he sketched all the designs himself.
I can't imagine that all he did was sketch the designs and mix the paste.
He also gave the vase to his daughter. Of course I suppose it could have been by anyone, but I think the fact he gave it to her implies it was his work.
m
edited to add:
On my vase, the vase at the Bristol blue glass ite and Adam P's vase, and the vase on page 53 in the book, the vase given to his daughter, the roses and leaves but particularly the roses are all gilded in as specific way, the same way.
A link to Adam P's vase that I also believe is by Barbe. Adam is hoping to add more pics as the only one visible is the pic of the foot now.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5758.msg48891.html#msg48891
m
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That's amazing ! Your roses and Adam's rose are surely by the same hand :D
I won't post any more links because it's just going to confuse things , but here is one . possibly Stuart , different flower, but probably by Barbe .......
http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/123756/c1880-gilded-posy-vase-possibly-stuart-sons/
Over & Out ....Mike ;)
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Thanks Mike :) I had seen that one as well. I think it's a 'possible' contender but the photograph is not clear nor close enough and I have some reservations about it. The leaves and flowers look like they have been outlined and then gilded. It doesn't look, from the photographs, to be by the same hand. It's hard to explain why, but it doesn't, however perhaps with clear closer photographs it might and it could be that the 'outline' my eyes are perceiving is in fact a shadow from the gilding.
With regard my vase, Adam P's and the vase on the Bristol Blue Glass site id'd as Stuart that you linked to, the quality of the gilding and the way they have been gilded is absolutely top quality (reservation on Adam's until I get better pictures).
I'm posting a link to show some comparisons:
a) The first is a link to a vase Keith posted some time ago that I've also been looking to help id. This has flat and raised gilding. The second and third shots should show close ups. You can see on the first shot the rose is completely differently done to the way mine is as are the leaves. And it is clear to me, from a different hand to my vases.
b) The second I have added here - it's a beautiful Mont Joye rose bowl, enormous, and on looking at it the gilding is superb, the sponge gilding around the rim is all intact still 100 yrs later so it's in good shape and it's a really beautiful piece. It also has flat and raised gilding. But again, looking at close up you can see big differences.
c) The last is a very close close-up of one of my pair of vases.
a) http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,29690.msg260114.html#msg260114
b) -top pic showing how good Mont Joye looks on display
-second pic down is a close up of the actual gilding on the Mont Joye
c) -close up of one of my pair of Stuart Barbe vases
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Thanks for the lovely examples m :) I see what you mean !
It's such a shame that there aren't a full set of pattern books for Webb and Stuart & Sons from 1900 to 1914 available online . :)
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'Thomas Webb and Sons in Stourbridge, who ranked alongside Stevens and Williams as one of the best quality factories, made some of the finest Edwardian examples, which still survive in the company's old collection now held by Broadfield House Glass Museum' - Source CH 20th Century British Glass page 47.
So where might the donated vase be? I think I must have searched the entire collection now and haven't found it ???
m
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http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46323.msg277880.html#msg277880
the vase I drew in my sketch has trailing that looks like the one in the far right back of Keith's second picture in link above (you need to enlarge the photo to see it) but it has a high 'waist', rather than a neck, so is a different shape.
The trailing is also the same as the one in the front of the picture although that is a footed vase.
The trails are the same but it's all clear on clear, a design Stuart used.
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There is a similar vase to your vases here described as Thomas Webb , it's lot 312 and you have to scroll down well over halfway , past the Powell straw opal & tumblers .......
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/auctions/print/56
It's a variation on your vase , not sure if the dimensions are the same but the auctioneers are based in Stourbridge so they should easily be able to research this !
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/
Ta Mike
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Thank you Mike, an excellent find - auction number 312 in the link you gave.
It appears to be a similar shape to this one
http://www.mikeweedonantiques.com/newsite/stock/glass/english/stuart/stuart-v-003.htm
which is listed on Mike Weedon's site as Stuart.
The Fieldings bowl has dab trails (but not drop head) around the vase and raised gilding (as per their description) on it. It has an upturned crimped rim which appears to be a 10 way crimp similar to rims identified as Stuart.
It is completely clear like mine.
The photograph is minute but the gilding appears to have a flower on it that is not a rose like mine but may be a similar flower to that on the vase posted here earlier in this thread:
http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/123756/c1880-gilded-posy-vase-possibly-stuart-sons/
The dab head trails appears to have been applied in a similar way to mine and seem to have that line between the trail and the dab - photo very small so open to correction.
Mike, they would have to check the records I guess to check the maker since there doesn't seem to be a book with these in it? Perhaps a book with these in is out there somewhere?
They haven't quoted a pattern number. I'm not convinced it's Webb (she says in a small voice).
edited to add, I've just posted a link to it on another thread pertaining to the rim shape and Christine says
'Looks like a Stuart shape to me'
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55709.msg316199.html#msg316199
m
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I've just been checking out some more Stuart vases that I wondered have been incorrectly listed as Harrach or Steigerwald/Schliersee and was looking at the Style and Design website. http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/references.html
Interestingly they give a list of reference sources for their identifications.
They say
'This section contains a less than exhaustive list of reference sources used. Sometimes they are comprehensive texts, occasionally they are simple collectors guides to a subject area.'
Some of those are listed below, and it was from Vol4 that Nigel confirmed some patterns for me of my 'drop head dab tail' vase on this thread. I guess I need an unavailable copy of these ;D
'95. Victorian Decorative Glass, British Designs 1850-1914 Volume Two, The Pattern Books of Stuart & Sons Limited and Philip Pargeter, Part One, Mervyn Gulliver, An M.G.ANTIQUES Publication for Collectors
96. Victorian Decorative Glass, British Designs 1850-1914 Volume Four, The Pattern Books of Stuart & Sons Limited and Philip Pargeter, Part Three, Mervyn Gulliver, An M.G.ANTIQUES Publication for Collectors
97. Victorian Decorative Glass, British Designs 1850-1914 Volume Three, The Pattern Books of Stuart & Sons Limited and Philip Pargeter, Part Two, Mervyn Gulliver, An M.G.ANTIQUES Publication for Collectors'
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Thanks m , I knew it would make you happy :) Total flook I found it ;)
I'm sure Fieldings wouldn't want to get it wrong... being a local piece of glass... and they havn't said 'possibly' in their description !
It's a real shame the photo isn't larger ! It's the way the foot has been applied at the base on the short stem, which looks remarkably similar to yours .
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Mod: This post edited 23 Feb 2014 by request of poster following later details on ID.
"Barbe vase given to daughter has now been confirmed as being Stuart"
Text of original post has been retained for contextual purposes.
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original text
No, they haven't Mike. But ... I'm still not convinced.
It doesn't explain why I have a pattern match for my vase to a Stuart catalogue. And there's something about all the vases linked on this thread now that I think are Stuart. But I could be wrong ;D I will do my best to check these when I'm up at Broadfield House. I hope they have a copy of the pattern books there, or a copy of Gulliver's volume 4.
I will edit this post in a minute and pull together links to all the pieces with this gilding that are up for question, so they can be easily compared by readers of the thread without having to trawl through the thread.
My vase – link to photos – I believe Stuart and Jules Barbe gilding as pattern match to Stuart pattern in Harrods catalogue 1909 no CH18080 matched to a Stuart pattern number in the book of 18080 and gilding matched to that on Barbe vase given to his daughter (page 53 CH 20thcBritishGlass)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55750.msg316021.html#msg316021
AdamP’s vase on another thread, same gilding as mine.Appears to be Stuart ref peacock eye and trails but more pics needed and shape match needed
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5758.msg48891.html#msg48891
Vase in Bristol Glass Museum, appears to have same gilding as mine, peacock eye, att.Stuart. Shape match needed
http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/footed-trumpet-vase-ca-1905/#.UwJqAdJdVJ1
V&A bowl which appears to have dab tails applied in the same way as my vase – id queried as Stuart
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6709/dewdrop-finger-bowl-stuart-sons-ltd/
My sketch of vase page 53 CH 20thC British Glass vase given by Barbe to his daughter same gilding as mine -hence my id for my vase. But in book as Thomas Webb. I'm querying whether this is in fact a Stuart vase?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55750.0;attach=148637;image
Keith’s pic Stuart vases (second pic down-needs to be enlarged to see detail) – far right back vase same trailing (but in green) as the Jules Barbe vase given to his daughter (trailing clear on clear vase)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46323.msg277880.html#msg277880
Vase att.possibly Stuart, gilded but not same dec as mine (poss not Barbe, clearer pics need to id)
http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/123756/c1880-gilded-posy-vase-possibly-stuart-sons/
Vase 312 on this Fieldings Sale March 2013 – id’d as Webb by Fieldings, possibly Stuart? poor photo so gilding not clear, shape appears to be Stuart, flower appears to be similar to that on sellingantiques vase
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/auctions/print/56
So far then, there are five vases that I believe are by Jules Barbe for Stuart: The one Jules Barbe gave to his daughter, my pair, Adamp p's and the vase on the Bristol Glass Museum site.
Summary:
-Only a Stuart pattern match to my vase shape at the moment.
-I'm hoping Adam P will add more pictures but from the base pic of his vase available, the peacock eyes appear to be Stuart and the trailing up and around the rim he describes matches Stuart trailed vases. (no shape match as full picture of vase not available)
-The trailing on the Barbe vase in the book is matched to Stuart trailing, but cannot find a shape match so far (need to check pattern books)
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m
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I've downloaded the photo of lot 312 on my computer and put it side-by-side next to a download of Mike Weedon's Stuart vase and I can't tell any difference between the two in the general shape ! Although they are taken from different angles. Mike's might have an 8 way 'crimp' rather than a 10 way as with lot 312 but it's difficult to say for sure .
Oh my gosh , how difficult ! I think I'm in the Stuart camp (but I know nothing !) :D
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yes I agree, the angle changes the perception but I believe they are the same bowl.
The rim I believe is the same cup and crimp as on the Stuart vase on page 159 Gulliver's Victorian Decorative Glass bottom photograph.
I believe the Fielding's vase is a Stuart vase with gilding the same or similar gilding pattern to that on the SellingAntiques site.
I don't think it's the same gilding as my vase.
m
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I guess all or some of the above examples might well be from the period when Barbe was working free-lance,... in British Glass 1800-1914 Charles Hajdamach says that during this period " A great deal of work was executed for Stuart & Sons whose pattern books are full of Barbe's designs, with his own pattern numbers alongside those of the company " page 327. :)
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Some information on Jules Barbe and his work from The Crystal Years (R.S. Williams-Thomas) (a book about Stevens and Williams), to add to the question about whether others executed his work once he went freelance. I interpret from this as well, that his work was his own.
on Page 48
'It was during this time that Jules Barbe severed his exclusive relationship with Messrs. Thomas Webb and became freelance and able to work for Stevens and Williams, and it was between 1900 and 1903 that his magnificent designs were executed in his own studio. The majority of his work was in flat and raised gold and all are carefully recorded with special reference numbers. His technique of raised gold decoration involved the use of a thick enamel paste carefully applied ... steel and bloodstone.'
And here if you scroll down the page, there is further information on him. Including 'During World War I, he reportedly had to enamel mustard pots for a living. This was at the end of his career, when his earlier accomplishments apparently sank into oblivion.'
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/enameled-and-gilded-vase?search=collection%3A000d6b04130cf6576740ac47de2c5166&page=3
To end on a high note:
Charles Hajdamach says in British Glass 1800-1914 page 327
'... When his name is mentioned in Stourbridge it is in the same company as Fritsche, Woodall and Northwood.'
m
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Ah, I have something else very interesting to add to my above post regarding Jules Barbe doing his own work.
As you read on down the page 49 in The Crystal Years, the author describes their (Stevens and Williams') 'gilding shop' as part of a description of the glasshouse rebuilt in 1870.
He says
'The gilding shop was in one corner of the square and was a little, dark, one-storey shed, with it's muffle sited in an off-shoot passage leading to the blacksmith's shop next door. There was scant room for three artists, all of whom needed to face the pale light from the reeded window. The muffle itself was truly primitive and was built by the works "brickie". It consisted of... . Stacking of the glass to be fired was a skilled and tricky operation, particularly when thin stemware was involved.'
If that's Stevens and Williams gilding shop, then I can only imagine Jules Barbe's 'atelier' as it was described in the contemporary article of the day, was just big enough for him :)
m
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Bingo -
This vase below was sold by Fieldings as Stuart (although I admit we've just been discussing a possibly incorrect attribution by Fieldings - however this shape really does match known Stuart shapes).
It has the trailing and similar bottom half to the vase given by Barbe to his daughter, but has a fluted rim rather than straight and not diabolo shape. Terrible photograph so impossible to be very sure about the rose although it looks right (but reserve judgement because of photo) , but the design is all the same as the design on the vase given by Jules Barbe to his daughter featured in Charles Hajdamach's 20th CBG page 53.
I really do suspect the vase she was given was Stuart.
http://fieldingsauctions.co.uk/lot/4658
m
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Well done ! ;)
I've been trying to track down were Stuart's pattern books are ' full of Barbe's designs , with his own pattern numbers alongside those of the company' Hajdamach see above. They aren't in the archives department in Dudley.
http://www.dudley.gov.uk/resident/libraries-archives/local-history--heritage/archive-and-local-history/
Waterford Wedgwood don't have them either .
Anyone know where they went to after (or even before) Stuart Crystal closed down ?
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That's interesting. The advice I was given was that I should call Waterford Wedgwood ???
I am going to check if I can, that the vase given by Barbe to his daughter is a Stuart piece. I think Broadfield House have the Gulliver's volumes.
However I am confident my piece is a Barbe piece since it matches the decoration in the CH book on page 53 of the group of Barbe vases, and is of his high quality.
I am also confident it's a Stuart vase since I believe I have a known match to it of pattern number 18080 :)
m
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The nice lady I spoke to on the phone at Waterford Wedgwood's head office said that they don't hold any archives and just have the brand name. She said there is still glass made in Ireland but it's unlikely there are any archive's held there, but she did give me a number.... which I didn't call.... (00)35351317000 . They might , I guess , know what happened to the Stuart pattern books ?! :-\
You really do seem to me to be spot-on with all your investigations, ... even with my untrained eye !
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I bet Mervyn Gulliver knows, perhaps someone would ask him at the next fair he attends
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Mike thank you for all your efforts and leads - I really appreciate the help :)
Christine, that's a lovely suggestion, if anyone reading this is going to see him before long. It would be extremely helpful as now I feel as though I'm going up to Broadfield House and the only reference I'm going to get is Gulliver's. A long way to go only to find that vase isn't in his other volumes ;D
(obviously lovely to see around the museum again of course, but... it's a pain the pattern books aren't easily accessible there unfortunately).
m
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Well I hope Barbe's designs are in those original four volumes....they need to be published on the internet and in the words of Joni Mitchell you could..."charge a dollar and a half just to see 'em" ;)
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I hope so too. In fact I am going to ring the museum this weekend and see if someone can check the book for me and look it up.
That might mean I can arrange to go to the archives after I've been to Broadfield House (depending on how long and how difficult to get there from Broadfield House - 4 miles here takes precisely 6minutes, 4 miles in Stourbridge/Birmingham could take hours ).
I thought about contacting Charles Hajdamach but on his website it says:
'Please do not contact Charles for identification requests.
Instead we recommend you visit Glass Messages Board (GMB), where many experts are available to answer your queries.'
m
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With many thanks to Bernard :
The vase identified as given by Jules Barbe to his daughter, on page 53 plate 101 , Charles Hajdamach's 20th Century British Glass, has been confirmed as a Stuart Vase (left hand vase - id'd in the caption as a Thomas Webb vase)
I've attached my sketch for reference so others can see at least a sketch of the vase if they don't have the book.
m
Discussion found on this thread reply nos #59-#63
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46323.msg316448.html#msg316448
(conversation/discussion on the Stuart?Walsh? thread cut and pasted here below for reference)
Me:
'Thank you Bernard.
And have a great and successful day tomorrow - I hope the weather is kind to you all.
'Yes I know Barbe decorated for Stuart thanks :)
What I wanted to know was whether the vase in CH British Glass Page 53 bottom picture left hand vase, was a Stuart vase.
Because I have a vase with the same decoration. And I believe the vase in the book is Stuart , but it's captioned Thomas Webb and was donated to the Thomas Webb museum by Barbe's daughter having been given to her by Jules Barbe.
a) that causes some confusion if it's not a Webb vase but is captioned as being a Thomas Webb piece
b) it's rather ironic that a Stuart vase ended up in a Thomas Webb works museum
m'
Bernard:
'Oops — wrong book. p53 vase in Hajdamach II is Stuart. The caption is misleading.
Please would you take a close look at yours. I've a fabulous and rare tall 12" example in canary opalescent with canary opalescent ribs, which could have been made by picking up rods and lightly marvering them in, rather than dip-moulding, as they protrude slightly on the inside, the opposite of what you would expect from dip-moulding.
Barbe's daughter may have assumed Webb.
These date from circa 1902.
Bernard C. 8)'
Me:
'thank you so much! I will copy and paste this discussion into my Jules Barbe thread if that is ok with you.
I have looked at my pair of Jules Barbe for Stuart vases (I think that is what you meant?) and there are no ribs. The only 'bumps' that can be felt on the inside are exactly where the drop head dab trails have been applied to the outside pushing the inside in slightly.
I have also looked at my tall Stuart Peacock Eye vase and there are no ribs on that either - only 'bumps' on the inside where the trails and eyes have been applied and pushed in the inside slightly.
Your canary opalescent sounds amazing!
Thank you again.
m'
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It is Himley Hall where they keep the records ? if so it's only a couple of miles straight up the A491 then right onto the B 4176 and you're there, ;D
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Thanks Keith. No apparently they have a new archives department and they are kept there 4 miles from the Museum.
I will look it up and see if it's feasible.
m
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Ok, since Bernard has confirmed the vase in CH 20thC BG page 53 is a Stuart vase (given by Barbe to his daughter)
the summary so far is:
Stuart vases with matched gilding to the Jules Barbe Stuart vase he gave to his daughter = 5 plus this one
1) My vase x2 – link to photos – I believe Stuart and Jules Barbe gilding as pattern match to Stuart pattern in Harrods catalogue 1909 no CH18080 matched to a Stuart pattern number in the book of 18080 and gilding matched to that on Barbe vase given to his daughter (page 53 CH 20thcBritishGlass)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55750.msg316021.html#msg316021
2) AdamP’s vase x2 (this is one of a pair I believe from reading the thread) on another thread, same gilding as mine. Appears to be Stuart ref peacock eye and trails.
More pics needed and shape match to Stuart pattern number to confirm
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5758.msg48891.html#msg48891
3) Vase x1 in Bristol Glass Museum, appears to have same gilding , peacock eye vase , att.Stuart.
Shape match needed to Stuart pattern number to confirm
http://www.museum.bristolblueglass.com/footed-trumpet-vase-ca-1905/#.UwJqAdJdVJ1
Update on other possible Barbe items in a similar vein, i.e. gilded on clear 'peacock eye type' vases, but not the same rose flower nor pattern:
There are two vases identified so far
1) http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/123756/c1880-gilded-posy-vase-possibly-stuart-sons/
2) Vase 312 on this Fieldings Sale March 2013 – id’d as Webb by Fieldings, possibly Stuart? poor photo so gilding not clear, shape appears to be Stuart, flower appears to be similar to that on sellingantiques vase
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/auctions/print/56
In Cyril Manley's book Decorative Victorian Glass published 1988, on page 89 item number 243, he shows a peacock eye trailed bowl that appears to have similar gilded decoration on it to the two vases noted just above:
My description of his bowl vase:
- It has 7 broad peacock eye and trails on it.
- Each have a green eye in the middle of a clear surround and the trails are also clear.
- The bowl is clear glass.
- It has a flat broad rim that, it appears, is slightly turned up on one side and slightly turned down on the opposing side.
- It has a gilded rim and a repeat pattern of clusters of gilding in between each of the peacock eyes (in a similar vein to the other Stuart vases listed above).
- The leaves are pointy and the flower is an open 5 petaled flower that looks as though it could be very similar to the one from SellingAntiques and the one from Fieldings (caveat - both of those very difficult to see clearly).
Manley says it is a Webb vase decorated by Jules Barbe for a friend of his:
I quote him
'This is one of a series of soda-lime bowls and vases produced in 1900 with "Cairngoram drops with green centres on flint". This is from Thomas Webb's records, and it is their spelling. The bowl was gilded by Jules Barbe and across the polished pontil is written 'July 11th 1907', but the space allocated for his signature is left vacant.'
Some comments/questions about this description from Manley and this bowl -
1) CH 20th Century British Glass page 37 says:
'In 1907 Webb's introduced coloured centres into the eye of their peacock trails to keep up with their competitors.'
Therefore although I think Manley's mention of 1900 is odd, this particular piece has a date written on it of 1907 and that does fit in with the year Webb's put coloured 'eyes' in their peacock trail pieces.
But if he is saying this was a piece made in 1900 by Thomas Webb's then that does not fit with the comment in CH 20th Century British Glass, because the eyes are coloured.
2) My next question is, is this vase a Webb vase? or could it be Stuart? It is difficult to see the shape as there is no profile picture but there is nothing about it, from my point of view, that says it couldn't be a Stuart vase/bowl. The maker needs to be clarified as there are many errors in the Manley book.
3) Of course, there is nothing to say that Barbe didn't do the same patterns on a variety of makers. From my reading it is clear that once he was independent he at the very least worked for Thomas Webb's, Stuart and also Stevens and Williams. However, in my personal opinion I think it is more likely he wouldn't have done that. (open to correction).
Summary:
Stuart/Barbe vases
-Only a Stuart pattern match to my vase shape at the moment.
-I'm hoping Adam P will add more pictures but from the base pic of his vase available, the peacock eyes appear to be Stuart and the trailing up and around the rim he describes matches Stuart trailed vases. (no shape match as full picture of vase not available)
- Need a shape pattern confirmation for the Stuart vase in the Bristol Glass Museum
- Confirm whether the SellingAntiques vase is a Stuart vase and try and clarify whether the gilding matches the Manley bowl
- Confirm whether the Fieldings vase is a Stuart or Webb vase and try and clarify whether the gilding matches the Manley bowl
Other Barbe vases:
I've not spotted any others that might be Barbe, apart from those mentioned so far (plus there are three, I think, signed pieces in museums, plus the Loving Cup at Broadfield House, plus two goblets shown in CH 20th Century British Glass for T Webb) however,
Manley shows 8 pieces on page 88 that he identifies as by Jules Barbe:
- One of which we have discussed here - item 243
- One which appears to have roses on, that seem (under a magnifying glass as pic very poor) to have been done in the same way as those on my vase.
Gilding pattern appears different and sparse though but I think this vase might be good to investigate further- item 246
The other pieces don't appear to have any similarities with the pieces being discussed on this thread. They are:
- A signed vase that I believe is the same as or the pair of a vase in the Corning Museum(the other might be in Broadfield House, I need to check this info) - item 245
- A Burmese flat rimmed bowl with enamelled roses on it - item 242
- Four other gilded on clear pieces - items 241, 244, 247, 248
m
m
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Update with regards my query in my post directly above, where we are trying to identify two vases that have similar gilding style to the now identified Barbe for Stuart vases, but the gilding has an open flower and different leaves to the identified pieces.
They are these two:
1) http://www.sellingantiques.co.uk/123756/c1880-gilded-posy-vase-possibly-stuart-sons/
2) Vase 312 on this Fieldings Sale March 2013 – id’d as Webb by Fieldings, possibly Stuart? poor photo so gilding not clear, shape appears to be Stuart, flower appears to be similar to that on sellingantiques vase
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/auctions/print/56
- I referred in my post above, to an item featured in Manley as a Jules Barbe decorated peacock eye vase, but identified by Manley as made by Thomas Webb (Manley Decorative Victorian Glass 1988 Item page 89 item 243- see description in above post).
My query was is it in fact a Stuart vase?
It has a similar gilding pattern and design to the two links above (caveat - difficult to be sure as the links above do not show clear close ups)
I have now found a similar vase from Stuart sold at Fieldings in 2011. This one is opalescent, narrower in body shape I believe, and only has 6 peacock eye trails. However it also has the turned up rim on one side with a turn down on the opposing side as, I believe, does the Manley vase.
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/38065
I think it is possible the Manley vase item 243 could actually be a Stuart vase. It is also possible this is another Barbe gilded pattern.
Both points require more investigation:
- Firstly to match the vase size and shape precisely to a Stuart pattern number.
- Secondly to try and match the gilding on the Manley item 243 to gilding on the two linked vases (or any others that may surface).
m
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I need to add a vase to the Barbe for Stuart list:
I think this one was mentioned earlier in the thread but I didn't refer to it again.
It was sold via Fieldings in 2012 as late 19th century. I think if it's Barbe for Stuart then that date is incorrect since Barbe didn't go independent from Thomas Webb's until 1901.
I believe plain Stuart vases were appearing with these spiral trails designs ( but green on clear) in similar shapes to this in the 1912 Harrods catalogue, with pattern numbers in the catalogue of CH plus the numbers in the 18000's (just for reference in case that helps the dating).
'Barbe's daughter' is dated c.1901-1910 in CH 20th century British Glass page 53.
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/lot/4658
http://fieldingsauctioneers.co.uk/slir/w444-h333-q100/app/webroot/img/lot_uploads/5/178.jpg
Shape - narrower body/base than the 'Barbe's daughter Stuart vase' on page 53 CH 20th Century British Glass
- taller than 'Barbe's daughter' and possibly has one more trail
- same vertical trails and spiral at the neck but has a frilled rim whereas 'Barbe's daughter' is straight rimmed
Gilding - Pattern design is the same as 'Barbe's daughter'
- Quality of gilding looks good
- Difficult to tell, but under magnification the rose looks the same as 'Barbe's daughter, my vases and Adam's vases,BMG vase.
I believe it is a Barbe for Stuart vase - so that makes 6 in this pattern so far:
- 'Barbe's daughter' - flared base, straight vertical trail, spiral neck, straight rim
- My pair - flared straight rim, bulbous body, drop head dab trail, footed
- Adam's pair - peacock eye base, vertical trail, spiral neck, (straight rim? not yet known)
- Bristol Museum of Glass vase - peacock eye rim, straight trails, spiral trails at base, footed
- Fieldings - flared base, straight vertical trail, spiral neck , frilled rim
[25 Feb 2014. Edited to add ...]
... so that makes 6 POSSIBLE Barbe for Stuart vases so far - pattern no. matches needed on three
m
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I've asked the mods to amend my post above when they have time, to make it clear that pattern no. matches are needed to establish that the 4 vases (Adam's pair, BMG vase and the new Fieldings' version I've just added) that appear to have rose & gilding matches to 'Barbe's daughter' and my matched pair of vases, are actually Stuart vases.
Until they are pattern number matched it is still possible they may be by another maker.
My comment on the timeframe I mentioned in my post above re the added Fieldings' vase, are only made on the basis that it could be a Stuart vase. If it is another maker then that timeframe may well be different and the Fieldings' date of late 19th century could of course be correct.
Also the two probables that have a different gilding flower will have to be pattern no. matched to establish whether they are Stuart vases. They also require matching to the 'Barbe' gilding pattern in Manley item 243. Identifying this second group of vases/gilding pattern as Barbe assumes that the vase in Manley is gilded by Barbe. That is open to correction if any more research surfaces.
I'm going to Broadfield House next week and will check through the resources they have to try and match them all. I'll report back.
m
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With reference my posts above:
'I think it is possible the Manley vase item 243 could actually be a Stuart vase. It is also possible this is another Barbe gilded pattern.
Both points require more investigation:
- Firstly to match the vase size and shape precisely to a Stuart pattern number.
- Secondly to try and match the gilding on the Manley item 243 to gilding on the two linked vases (or any others that may surface).'
m
A member of the board has contacted me directly to tell me that this vase shape, Item 243 in Manley, has been seen by them in a golden amber colour c. 1930, acid marked "Stuart ENGLAND".
Which begs the question - how robust is Manley's assertion?
'This is one of a series of soda-lime bowls and vases produced in 1900 with "Cairngoram drops with green centres on flint". This is from Thomas Webb's records, and it's their spelling.'
I haven't seen the Webb pattern books, so I suppose it is possible they produced exactly the same item.
However, should it turn out that Thomas Webb did not and this vase is definitely and only a Stuart pattern, there are now a number of queries over Manley's comment:
- Firstly, he actually asserts the the bowl was produced in 1900 rather than saying 'produced from' or 'c.1900', which given the coloured centre of the eye does not appear to be true (see CH British Glass - coloured centres to Webb's 'eyes' added in 1907)
- Secondly, he calls the eyes 'Cairngoram drops' and asserts this was the exact spelling from Thomas Webb records. Therefore, if he had actually seen the Thomas Webb records to see this recorded, and if this vase is not Thomas Webb but Stuart, then Thomas Webb's 'Cairngoram drops' must apply to some other decor.
I do not know how the' 'Cairngoram' drops' comment from Manley fit in with the Stuart peacock eye trail style vases that are often called 'Cairngorm'. I've not seen the pattern books of either.
All I can add for now is:
- in CH British Glass 1800-1914 the Thomas Webb peacock eye trail style vases (only 4 sketches shown which may be a very small portion of their total production) shown on page 436 are indicated as '"teardrops", 'inverted "teardrops"' , '"Cats Eyes" teardrops' and 'coloured teardrops'.
- In CH 20th Century British Glass Charles Hajdamach refers to this style on page 37.
He says 'Thomas Webb and Sons introduced their version of twisted 'teardrops' in 1901, re-worked the idea into inverted 'teardrops' in 1902 and in 1903 re-christened the peacock trail as 'Cat's Eyes' teardrops. In 1907 Webb's introduced coloured centres into the eye of their peacock trails to keep up with their competitors.'
and
Looking at his sketches in CH British Glass 1800-1914 it is my observation that the shape of the 'teardrops' does not match the shape of the peacock eye style eye on this bowl in Manley.
m
p.s. for other discussions on the board regarding Manley's 'Cairngoram drops' phrase see
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,37964.msg315873.html#msg315873
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,5358.msg44632.html#msg44632
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,1901.msg48443.html#msg48443
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With reference my posts above:
' 'I think it is possible the Manley vase item 243 could actually be a Stuart vase. It is also possible this is another Barbe gilded pattern.
Both points require more investigation:
- Firstly to match the vase size and shape precisely to a Stuart pattern number.
- Secondly to try and match the gilding on the Manley item 243 to gilding on the two linked vases (or any others that may surface).'
m
As I said above, a member of the board has contacted me directly to tell me that this vase shape, Item 243 in Manley, has been seen by them in a golden amber colour c. 1930, acid marked "Stuart ENGLAND". '
To show you an example of the Manley up-down rim vase in the book, here is an example(in the link below) that I believe matches the vase in Manley's Victorian Decorative Glass (1988) Item no. 243 page 88 - the one described as Webb's in the book. Manley quoted the size as 26cm diameter and the bowl is clear glass with clear trails and clear wide peacock eye surrounds that have a central green eye. It is gilded in 'panels' on the flattened rim between each of the peacock eyes, and has a gilded rim edge.
This one in the link is quoted as 27cm diameter but I think, given the design, the difference in diameter would be 'allowable'. It also has the 7 peacock eyes and the up and down turned rim and I believe is the same shape as the one in the book. The one in the link is green with red peacock eyes and is not gilded at all. It is described as:
'Stuart and Sons, Stourbridge by William Husselbee in rare colourway'
http://www.nouveauglass.co.uk/archived/stuart-and-sons-7/
I think it is now clarified that the vase on page 89 item 243 in Manley is a Stuart vase although I do not have a pattern number for it. I cannot attest that Webb's did not make exactly the same shape and size with the same type and number of peacock eyes, but I think it is unlikely.
(I saw this vase in real life and fell completely in love with it but could not afford it D, so it wasn't 'sold' to me :'( )
m
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I don't know if I've added this but here is a photo of a known Stuart design on a vase shape that is the same as 'Barbe's daughter'
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/tring-market-auctions/catalogue-id-srtri10011/lot-65109eeb-9fa5-4c06-9c8b-a44700b640fc
'Barbe's daughter' for comparison
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55750.0;attach=148636;image
m
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It's been a long time since I've looked at these vases
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55750.msg316021.html#msg316021
but I just saw this one that appears to be the same shape? It also has the dabs but they're in green and no gilding on it.
The seller says it has an inner glass insert for the flower arrangement, which is stamped 'Stuart and Son with a product no. PJ 637674'
That number appears to be registered as :
637674- 5 Stuart & Sons Ltd
28-May-1914
https://www.antiques-atlas.com/antique/art_nouveau_stuart__son_glass_tadpole_vase/as1014a092