Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: rocco on March 06, 2014, 07:13:04 PM
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These vases are attributed to Karl Wiedmann for Gralglas everywhere, but as with >> those other vases (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49201.msg308875.html#msg308875) I wonder if they might be Polish as well.
Height 32 cm, the base has a ground and polished, but far from circular pontil mark...
Several more of them:
Link 1 (http://www.glaskilian.de/Ikora-Glas-Vase-Design-Karl-Wi.144+B6YmFja1BJRD0xNDQmcHJvZHVjdElEPTE5NTQ2JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTE0NCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html)
Link 2 (http://www.glaskilian.de/Vase_Gral_Glas.144+B6YmFja1BJRD0xNDQmcHJvZHVjdElEPTExODYmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTQ0JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html)
Link 3 (http://www.ebay.at/itm/Ikora-Glas-Vase-Design-Karl-Wiedmann-Gral-Glas-WMF-Hohe-32-cm-um-1960-/321333355910?pt=Design_Stil&hash=item4ad0f5e586)
Not found in the Gralglas book or on the CD-Rom, neither is the shape found in any of their catalogues. If they were Unikat pieces, I guess there should have turned up one with a signature, but I haven't come across that yet.
On the other hand they seem to be relatives of the >> ball candleholders (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,38212.0.html) which have been attributed to Wiedmann/Gralglas with some certainty ???
Any thoughts highly appreciated!
Michael
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I can't answer your question but have one of my own :)
What do you mean they seem to be relatives of the ball glass candleholders? I honestly can't see the connection between the vase you show and the candleholders, other than that they both use silver chlorides?
On the Glaskilian site in one of the links there is something 'similarish' to the vase in shape here (2nd row down far right), but that is the only one I could see and I don't think it is the same shape :-\
http://www.glaskilian.de/ib/ib57.htm
m
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m, thank you for your contribution!
I certainly may be wrong, but I think there are some -- more than accidental -- similarities between the vases and the candleholders; if you scroll down to the blue one and the pic of the 3 different coloured ones, the blue and the orange remind of the colours in my vase and in the orange vase in my second link, so do the small silver chloride dots in all pieces.
Here is >> a lovely ashtray (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?topic=46485.0) Anik posted, which seems related both to the candleholders and the vases.
I also checked the Wiedmann exhibition catalogue, and there is one Ikora glass vase from 1928 similar to the metal vase you linked to (and vaguely similar to my vase, just much more flared top), PN 111/3496. The decor is far more complex, and the height is only 23,6 cm.
Michael
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oh ok I see :) sorry Michael, I didn't scroll down the link and had forgotten about the blue ashtray. I can see I commented on that thread ::) but I'd forgotten about it.
Dirk had a conversation here http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46485.msg264702.html#msg264702
on that thread that confirmed them as Wiedmann
The reason I had asked about it was because they reminded me of a decor on a piece I had that was by Cari Zalloni for WMF iirc. I will try and find a picture of it if I still have one. It was a bright blue candleholder with just the silver chlorides, nowhere near as pretty as these pieces and no other nice special effects like your vase or the ball candles or the ashtray though. It was just the blue and chlorides that reminded me of it I think. And probably not linked to these pieces at all which is perhaps why I didn't mention it on that thread.
I'll add a pic once I find one.
I didn't spot the vase but I guess a similar shape to the metal one...mmm, it's slightly different to yours isn't it? the flared rim is different.
m
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Thanks, m.
Yes, those blue-with-Silver-Chloride 1970s WMF pieces are quite abundant on German ebay, not exclusively in Zalloni shapes.
Seems the only colourway they are found in, so I would think rather not related to the pieces in question.
BTW, I had forgotten about the ashtray thread as well (and that I had contributed to it).
Dirk mentions >> there (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46485.msg264702.html#msg264702) the vases as well.
It would be much better (regarding value) if my vase and the other items from this range were Gralglas and Wiedmann. ;)
If they turned out to be Polish, I guess they wouldn't sell in that price range anymore, though they are still lovely pieces.
So let us hope we will find a labelled one some day which will tell one way or the other...
Michael
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As I read it,
Reading through Dirk's post it says that Gunther Hoffman confimed Anik's candleholders as by Wiedmann
There are 4 candleholders from Anik if I read it correctly - 3 multicoloured and 1 only blue with chlorides.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,38212.msg236192.html#msg236192
In the Gunther Hoffman conversation I wonder which ones he was shown and confirmed as by Wiedmann? I ask because in this post (see link) last photo, the astray looks very similar to the left hand candleholder but not as much to the right hand one. Also the right hand one looks bigger and as if it has more clear glass casing on it. It might just be the way it was made, the way the chlorides have played out in the glass, and these might be small differences in the same range anyway. But there appears to be some small differences. I was wondering if they were a 'later issue' or something perhaps? or maybe a reissue by another company?
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46485.msg261106.html#msg261106
Your vase doesn't look to have the chlorides and colours laid on in the same way as the three multicoloured ball candleholders, but that might just be the way I am seeing it?
Hoffman said there was a vase as well, but it's impossible from that to deduce what kind of vase really I think. Perhaps it has been assumed that meant the vases like yours?
m
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I have made some amendments to my post directly above this one having read another thread on the board.
m
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On the Glaskilian site in one of the links there is something 'similarish' to the vase in shape here (2nd row down far right), but that is the only one I could see and I don't think it is the same shape :-\
http://www.glaskilian.de/ib/ib57.htm
m
On the risk of being offtopic and superfluous I think I should mention that these items are all Ikora metal - there is no glass involved.
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Not superfluous and I should have made that clear Ivo. Thank you :) It was just the shape I was referring to.
m
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I cannot really add much more, I would think the difference in the distribution of the colours and chlorides hail from the different ways a tall vase and a small (massive) candleholders are produced?
IMHO, the greyish-yellow silver chlorides and the orange stuff (whatever it is) seem to be similar in all pieces.
I am sure we will find out one day. (Hopefully I am just over suspicious) ;)
edit: I was always convinced that these are the vases mentioned in the thread belonging to the same range as the candle holders, but I may be wrong...
Michael
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;D
Panicking mildly here, I bought the ashtray from Anik. :-*
I absolutely adore it. It is a seriously classy bit of glass, no matter who made it. But I do like it being Gralglas and Karl Weidman.
Is that in doubt now?
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Looking at Glaskilian in your link Michael, doesn't his page read Gral-glas OR WMF? So he doesn't know either which firm it came from.
http://www.glaskilian.de/Ikora-Glas-Vase-Design-Karl-Wi.144+B6YmFja1BJRD0xNDQmcHJvZHVjdElEPTE5NTQ2JnBpZF9wcm9kdWN0PTE0NCZkZXRhaWw9.0.html
and again I think there are differences between yours
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55968.0;attach=149982;image
and Glaskilian's, and this one
http://www.glaskilian.de/Vase_Gral_Glas.144+B6YmFja1BJRD0xNDQmcHJvZHVjdElEPTExODYmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9MTQ0JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
It seems to me on this orange one the top is shorter , the foot is slightly different, the casing at the bottom is different and the way the colours are laid on is also not quite the same.
The colours looks more of a match in the way it is constructed, with Anik's three multi coloured candle holders than the blue and chloride one. And they don't stretch like yours and Glaskilian's.
But that could just be me looking at minutiae - perhaps this is all just part of the range and how it was made.
m
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@ Sue: I feel a little embarrassed now, I didn't have any intention to panic other owners of these lovely pieces 8)
Just trying to investigate the matter further if some of the pieces usually attributed to Wiedmann and Gralglas (like the ones in my other thread) really are...
I am far from sure that the ones from this thread and the ones from >> the other thread (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49201.0.html) are by the same maker alltogether (those are much better finished)
@ m: I can see some subtle differences, but not enough to make me think the two vases could be from different makers. Glaskilian states "free blown", so that would probably explain the varying shapes. And all of these seem to be 31 cm high.
But I may be completely off the track anyway with all my wild speculation here ::)
Michael
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Difficult.
First I think the candleholders and vases in question are from the same maker without a doubt. I have two of each in exactly the same colourway / decoration.
At the time I contaced Mr. Hofmann I only had two candleholders. (Those with powder decoration like the vases; those with powder and large bubbles are sometimes signed - according to Günther Hofmann again the later ones) I showed him a bunch of ca. 12 pictures, respectively his daughter showed them to him on the computer screen and later on the phone he told me that all of these were Gralglas.
As I see it there may be a small chance he was mistaken due to the number of pictures perhaps, but... I wish this contact would have lasted, but unfortunately it didn´t.... :-\
I´ve become more suspicious meanwhile myself, too. Not only because these are missing in the book and we´ve not been able to find a labelled one, but also because the clear glass used for casing seems to have a different formula also.
While Gralglas clear glass always seems to show an orange glow under UV the pieces in question have a green one.
:-\ :-\ :-\
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HI Dirk
when you say you have two of each, do you mean two multicoloured candle holders, two just blue with chlorides and then two vases? or do you just have the blue with chlorides candle holders and the vases?
I'm just trying to work out that when you say from the same maker, do you mean all the pieces, or just that the blue with chlorides ball candle holder and the vases are the same maker, leaving aside the multi coloured ball candle holders?
Sorry to be so pedantic, but I just wanted to be clear which pieces Mr Hoffman had said was Gral Glas.
Then, when you say they are all from the same maker do you mean all the pieces , i.e. the multi coloured ball candle holders Anik has, and the blue with chlorides ball candle holder and the vases as well?
apologies again, but I just want to make sure I've understood correctly :-[
So it seems from the UV experiment that the clear glass casing on all these pieces does not match the clear glass casing from your Gral Glas pieces. Is that possibly explainable because they are from a different period in the factory's life so they might have been using a different batch for the clear glass? or might it only be explained by the fact they come from a different factory?
that is the question.
m
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The clear glass of the ashtray glows (dirty) orange under uv.
whew!
Not that I would have liked it any less. It is what it is and gorgeous. ;D
I should never have doubted Anik. :-[
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No problem... I´ve left out WMF completely to avoid even more confusion... ;D
When I said I meant these are from the same maker without a doubt I was thinking of these.
I had shown a candleholder to Mr. Hofmann and he ID´d it as Gral (but I´m skeptic now).
Their green glow, apart from other objections, underlines my doubts.
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Same doubts unfortunately still apply to the chloride pieces. No documentation, glow etc...
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OTOH - the decor Fumaris has the same characteristics - silver chloride, but this time also used
for outer decoration. These are usually signed - although I also have an exception. And like on
other Gral pieces the clear glows orange.
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ok, and thank you for clarifying with pictures.
I still see differences between Anik's candle holders i.e.the two on the left look by the same hand/range, the one on the right here doesn't. To me it looks like your first set of pictures with the blue and chloride vase and the blue and chloride ball candle holder.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,38212.msg236192.html#msg236192
However the two ball candle holders on the left of Anik's picture do have more similarities with the vase on the right in your picture 2 although I would still say the colours aren't laid on in the same way. But I dont' have them in hand to see.
You are saying you feel your ball candleholder and vase in pic one and also the vase in pic two are made by the same maker.
So the ones that stick out for me in all this are the two ball candle holders on the left of Anik's picture. I wonder if they glow green or orange because to me they look like different production - either different 'range' or different time period, maybe they are earlier and the other pieces are all later or something?
For what it's worth, I do think the ashtray has more similarities with the two multicoloured ball candleholders from Anik, than the plainer blue with chlorides one. The similarity in the ashtray to the plainer blue with chlorides candle holder is the colour blue. But that is where it stops for me.
However it might be the one thing that could link them all together except that Dirk shows a plainer blue with chlorides candle holder and says it glows green. Whereas Sue says her ashtray glows orange. I bet the multi coloured ball candle holders glow orange :)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46485.msg261106.html#msg261106
m
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This is a signed Gral Glas hutte Wiedmann vase (see link below) and looking at the decor I can see the similarities between that and Anik's multicoloured ball candle holders ... but not the plain blue one with chlorides, if you see what I mean? or the vases Michael has shown.
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=101&artikel=26911&cHash=b014c48f2b
m
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First -- thanks a lot Dirk for chiming in and showing the pieces side by side!
I was hoping for your expert knowledge in this matter...
So debate seems to be open :-\
@m: the vase you linked to in the Fischer auctions is from a range called Unikat "Herbstwald" (= "autumnal forest"), which is pictured in the Gralglas book. Rather scarce as far as I know.
Michael
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Thank you - so this is a different decor ?
And I can see that side by side there may be more bubbles and chloride in Anik's multi coloured ball candle holders here (see thread below) than in the vase
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,38212.msg210513.html#msg210513
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/210-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=101&artikel=26911&cHash=b014c48f2b
But they have similarities especially in the use of colour when you compare them side by side.
The plain blue and chlorides ball candle holder doesn't look the same.
I would still say there might be hope for the multi coloured candle holders to be Gral -glas or Wiedmann.
m
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Possibly too hard to capture in a picture, but all the ball-shaped candleholders (and the 2 matching vases)
are much more obviously from the same maker when you handle them and see them from different
perspectives.
The vary for different reasons. First they have different base colours and second the use of powders is
quite different. Sometimes also the powders on the candleholders with large splotches show areas
where these form such small ´eyes´ of yellow. This may be an unintended or based on technique, but
as my first picture suggests this process might also be controllable.
´Herbstwald´ is a different range indeed; the colours are based on a scheme Wiedmann used for some
Ikora pieces already though. These - as far as I know and have seen - are always signed.
You´re invited for a coffee and a meal and some studies 1st hand at my place of course... ;D
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aaah thank you :)
Next time I am in Germany I will let you know.
m