Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on April 22, 2014, 08:42:46 AM
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I stumbled upon this -
The Pencil of Nature - William Henry Fox Talbot (produced 1844-1846)
Third plate down, plate IV shows a photograph of a number of decanters and goblets older than 1846 (which is when the last one of these books was produced).
Thought someone might be interested - it's also fascinating from a photography point of view as well.
http://nationalmediamuseumblog.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/a-z-of-photography-william-henry-fox-talbots-the-pencil-of-nature/
m
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if that seems appropriate link: bello
These old photos made me remember the : Dry plares>> (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,53640.msg305532.html#msg305532)
I found in Kolbenova(Praha)
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hello m - you'll think me ungrateful possibly, but I'm not sure that there's any real value in these pix in view of the (very understandable) lack of definition. Massive interest re the history of photography, but not so sure about the value to us glass collectors.
Collectors of decanters are catered for very well with Andy McConnell's book (it appears two stoppers have gone walkabout), but don't think I'm seeing the drinking glasses too clearly.
The tumblers on the middle shelf look, possibly, to be pillar moulded, and I'd like to have seen the decoration on the ales on the top shelf. Do you think you might edit this pix with picasa ;)
But haven't we come a long way since Fox Talbot :)
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You're right Paul, however I think it's always useful to some degree to have evidence of a shape existing at a certain point in time.
Books are fine, and photos taken now of items deemed to be nearly two hundred years old are all good, but photography or art or 'catalogues/leaflets' of whatever depiction and contemporary to the period of the item, are real evidence of existence in time :)
I wondered why for example, the pair had no stoppers? was it because one had got broken so to make the photo symmetrical he took off the other? or was it that they are actually quite a lot older than the other decanters on the display hence both stoppers broken over time and as of 1845 missing their stoppers.
But that's because I have no idea about decanters and glasses I guess :) Do we know if those without stoppers are much older than the others?
m
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those bottles missing their stoppers look to be fairly typical of decanters from 1830 - 40, so I don't think they're much earlier than this date, if at all, and this is confirmed by the fact that this precise image, with provenance, appears in McConnell's book. The caption in the book, also confirms the source as being 'The Pencil of Nature' dated 1844, and states that the photograph shows the window display at Apsley Pellat's London showroom, so presumably British pieces.
I've recently bought a book 'City of Laughter - Sex and Satire in Eighteenth Century London' - gives a great insight into Georgian and Regency life between from about the middle of the C18 to the end of the Regency - 1830 ish, based on the satirical/political/debauchery issues of the day.
This comes back to the topic of the cartoons and engravings we were discussing with Peter some weeks back - re the illustrations from Rowlandson, Cruikshank and Gillray etc.
In view of the nature of the subjects covered, these illustrations are a marvelous source of contemporary styles of drinking glasses and decanters - drinking was a very popular pastime - and helps to confirm the dating of certain shapes etc.
Images do need to be of a certain clarity and sharpness to be of real use. :)
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' Images do need to be of a certain clarity and sharpness to be of real use. '
;D they do, agreed, but owt is better than nowt.
m
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yes, you're right of course - thanks for the interest and copy of the image............I'd forgotten the pic was in the book. I wonder for how long he stood on the pavement with the shutter open :)
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Information on wikipedia on the dry plates process Fontanazul posted earlier in the thread
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_plate
Fontanazul do any of them have pictures of glass on them?
m
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Fontanazul do any of them have pictures of glass on them?
m
effectively as you know I am very focused on my Czech mnemonic drawings >> (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55848.0.html)
. Dry plates are currently outside the field of research and analysis :P
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have to be honest and say that I missed entirely the three pages of Daniel's art work - which probably says a great deal about my blinkered vision and that I read only the obvious glassy posts. :)
The cleverness of re-interpreting images and coupling with word play is obviously way over my head - but I do understand some of them and will go back and enjoy looking a second time - that's if I can remember ;)
Bearing in mind the date of Fox Talbot's efforts, might his process have been with wet plates, rather than dry??
But whatever, you have to take you hat off to this guy for his perseverance - perhaps this image in question was actually taken inside Pellat's showrooms which would have made life a bit easier than standing out on the pavement.
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Yes wet plates Paul.
I just then wondered whether those Daniel had bought might have been bought because they contained glass pics.
Having spent hours, nay days, searching the internet for various exhibition catalogues with drawings of glass in them, any photographs are a blessing. I find it extremely difficult to imagine a piece of coloured glass from a black and white sketch.
m
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Finding the negative would be useful as that would contain a lot more detail than the prints it produced. But was Pellat selling antique glass in that shop?
Not all carafes were made with stoppers so these should be assumed to be how they were made.
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flyingfree,
I thought the article very interesting. It certainly shows how far photography has come, as well as how old it really is. I've never seen photographs in a book that old - it's always lithographs or engravings of some sort.
I guess that the pain of photographing clear glass is nothing new then.
huronia
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Yes wet plates Paul.
I just then wondered whether those A Daniel had bought might have been bought because they contained glass pics.
Having spent hours, nay days, searching the internet for various exhibition catalogues with drawings of glass in them, any photographs are a blessing. B I find it extremely difficult to imagine a piece of coloured glass from a black and white sketch.
m
A. - I bought this box out of curiosity (and price)
Now that I have revealed photographs (with PC)
trying to see the embroidery work Mom. (no glass)
Dry Plates >>[/ (https://www.google.es/search?q=dry+plates&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=dZheU4ywK-av7Ab7k4HoBw&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1536&bih=740)[/i]url]
B. - often a drawing is more accurate, more real than the photograph (sometimes >> (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55848.msg316590.html#msg316590)). :P
.....also today photography in black and white has your friends..... :-*
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I was in Fox Talbot's Lacock Abbey today and I noticed they had a cabinet of glassware, a set of about 50 pieces all engraved. The variety of pieces was fairly narrow - tumblers, decanters, one or two other things. It was stored in low light conditions and difficult to view.
However on the National Trust website they have an image of one of the tumblers with a better view of the engraving.
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/996662.5
This isn't my area but in light of Talbot photographing Apsley Pellat glassware, could this engraved set have been made for him by Pellat? Or is it a later piece? Any ideas... just curious...
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In London the Pellatt's produced glass for most, if not all of the first half of the C19, and made a very diverfe range of articles which did include tumblers, although they're probably best remembered for Apsley's patented sulphide plaques.
I'm not sure what to think of this NT 'tumbler' - the wheel engraving is of fine quality but not easy to date - my opinion is that it would pre-date 1846 - I'm sure it's a blown piece and not pressed. But the more curious aspect is its shape which is not that of a standard tumbler, and with that curve where the side meets the base it reminds me strongly of the top part of a carafe and tumbler/tumbler and up/guest water set.
The few sets of these things I had have long since gone but the short squat dimensions of this one may well be similar to the size of carafe tumblers.
I don't know what sort of start date carafe and tumbler sets had, certainly they were around in the middle of the C19, but how much earlier than that they might have started perhaps someone else might know.
Don't think you could ever rustle up enough evidence remotely to make the connection between Pellatt and Fox Talbot for this piece, but romantic idea perhaps. :)
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Paul, it reminded me of a tumble up shape as well, but since I know nothing about glasses I didn't like to comment.
However just for interest I did find this print dated 1862 of Pellatt glass
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1862-Services-In-Glass-Pellatt-East-End-Dome-Closing-Day-Exhibition-/331339837645?pt=UK_art_prints_GL&hash=item4d2564b0cd
m
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in which can be seen an example of a tumble up/carafe and tumbler, showing the distinctive base curve which was typical of tumblers from these sets.
But this possible connection with a carafe isn't conclusive, and it was just a suggestion of mine - we'll almost certainly never know for sure for what use this tumbler was made - but I do like the wheel engraving.
But let's not be too negative ;)
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;D
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It's possible some of the tumblers were for a carafe, alas the cabinet was in a low light spot and difficult to view. By the way that National Trust website, though beset with slow server speed, has quite a lot of interesting glass if you search around. I've spotted a few Manchester pieces which for some reason congregate in two museums, one a 1920s house in Nottingham, and another in a colection in the Aberaeron area, where a Kensington antique dealer left her glass collection to the museum.