Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Barmy on May 26, 2014, 11:57:53 AM
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First the background:
Using Brian Brooks book Whisky Dispensers and Measures, A patent was granted to W.H. Richardson on 31st December 1869 with regards to applying a lead seal to Measures. His son at that time was the manager for James Couper and Sons of Glasgow. James Couper and Sons also registered 3 designs for Measures in 1869/70 (as found in Brooks book pg 22). All Measures I have found to date labelled "Richardson Patent" and containing a lead seal have met the above criteria. Below is a photo of one of these Measures:
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/barmy1/Whisky%20Measure/0Q5A2751s_zps1196ea62.jpg
Now the Mystery Measure:
It does not use one of the registered designs that Brooks book has indicated that Couper and Sons used. The Measure seems to be older than 1869. It has a rough pontil. It has imperfections imbedded in the glass. The glass is not uniform (it is wavy). But the lead seal has been stamped E.R. which would date the verification of the measure to after 1901. It has "Richardson Patent" etched on it and a Richardson type serial number on it.
Did Couper and Son find an old Measure and applied their techniques to it after 1901? I don't know. Here are some pictures of this unique Measure:
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/barmy1/Unusal%20Richardson%20Patent/_Q5A2728s_zpse98cfb10.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/barmy1/Unusal%20Richardson%20Patent/_Q5A2726s_zps126f7da5.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/barmy1/Unusal%20Richardson%20Patent/_Q5A2724s_zps5031fcd2.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u242/barmy1/Unusal%20Richardson%20Patent/_Q5A2722s_zps3d6b3d1a.jpg
Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.
Barry
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hello - we've had the Richardson type with lead seal previously - see this link ........
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49321.msg278172.html#msg278172 ...
and that one which I still have is stamped crown - E.R. - 35 ..... the letters signifying (I believe) Edward Royal (Edward VII 1901 - 1910), and the figure denoting Glasgow (supported by the Verification data).
Immediately preceding this would have been V.R. 1879 - 1901 .... E.R. 1901 - 1910, and G.R. 1911 - 1920 (after which, apparently, these measures ceased being made).
My example carries the Richardson Patent No. B 623, but I don't know if all of the Couper Glasgow lead seal type measures do so - I'd imagine they probably do.
You don't mention what Nos. if any are on the seals of your Couper examples. According to Brian Brooks, Nos. 34 and 36 were also allocated to Glasgow - whether this means that Couper pieces might equally be found showing any one of these three Glasgow Nos. I'm not sure, as I possess only the one example showing No. 35, but I notice that Brooks comments ...."amongst the most common Nos. are 34 and 36 for Glasgow"" - why 35 should be less common I've no idea. Presumably these same Nos. remained in use for all measures produced - in Glasgow - between 1879 and 1920, the only variable being the letters denoting which Monarch.
Quite why Glasgow should have been given three different Nos. I don't know - I had assumed that 'one city - one No.' - perhaps it depended on the size of Are there examples of other cities possessing more than one Verification No. ??
It's tempting to think that your mystery piece might pre-date 1869 (the date of Richardson's Patent), although my opinion would be that the rough pontil and imperfections in the glass don't on their own suggest a date pre 1869, but I take the point of your argument that your mystery item doesn't match one of Couper's Registered designs for measures, although again this doesn't necessarily imply old age.
Brian Brooks footnotes the three designs that he does show, as specifically having been Registered with the Board of Trade i.e. these have Rd. Nos., the details of which are provided at the end of the booklet.
With many C19 glass manufacturers there existed a situation where they both Registered some designs but not others, and there is no reason so assume that your mystery item may well not be simply a design that Richardson/Couper - for whatever reason - chose not to Register - thus consigning its designs to obscurity.
Your mystery piece does have a lead seal, and as such can only refer you to Brook's comments where he says that "a measure with a lead seal cannot date before 1870 as the date of the patent was 31st December, 1869" .... and he seems to be quite dogmatic with that statement.
My suggestion therefore would be that your unknown item was unregistered, and therefore dropped off the radar, but the fact that it incorporates a lead seal means it falls into the date line of other designs shown in Brooks booklet, and contrary to your hopes is not pre 1869.
However, don't know that I'd agree with Brooks comments that "design and style of a measure is helpful in dating" - the three Richardson/Couper designs he shows may well have started life in 1869, but at least one was still going strong after the turn of the century, so hardly a reliable system for even approximate dating. You may well be able to see this better since you appear to possess several of Couper's pieces.
It's likely that provided the piece in question could meet a given capacity then aesthetics may well not have been an issue. I dare say that the Glasgow pubs/taverns/hotels in which these measures spent their lives didn't care too much about looks.
Just my opinions you understand, let's see what others think :)
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meant to ask why this is in 'Glass' ?? :)
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apologies - obviously not my afternoon.....
should have read..............."perhaps it depended on the size of the city??"
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Paul
The mystery measure has a Glasgow number included on the seal.
I have 8 "Richardson Patent" Measures in my collection and have bid on at least a 12 more on E-bay. All of these Richardson Measures are of the same shape Measure as the first one of my post. I haven't seen one yet in the shape of my mystery measure. If anyone on the board has a Measure the same shape as my mystery Measure and is a Richardson's Patent Measure I would appreciate seeing it. I have others in my collection that are not Richardson, but use the shape of my mystery measure.
Thanks Paul for replying
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Barry - which of the three Glasgow Nos. does your 'mystery' measure show??
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Paul it has the number 34 on it.
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so we have now accounted for two of the Glasgow Nos.......... you have No. 34 and my one and only piece is No. 35.
and you're saying that all of your Richardson examples are of a single design - i.e. the left hand example showing in Brooks on page 22 - with the large cut hollows....... my one appears to conform to the right hand design i.e. with the small hollows around the base.
What do you know of the design in the centre - without any olives/hollows and with the vertical cuts.
Presumably all of these Richardson pieces, irrespective of the individual design, should show just the one patent No. which I've already mentioned - namely B623. I can't see reference to this actual No. in Brooks booklet though - have I missed it?
Do all of your eight examples of the Richardson lead seal type show this patent No.??
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Paul In Brooks book, he felt that the one alpha character followed by 3 digits was a registration number. He also says he has never seen 2 measures with the same number.
I have a measure with the number 36. A majority with the tree motif for Glasgow. And a few that the seal has been damaged so it's hard to tell what is on them. All but one of my measures uses the form that is on the left in the book, but, I have one that is in the form on the right.
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firstly, apologies for my gaff........... I had assumed, since I have only the one example of a Richardson measure, that the engraved No. was the Patent No. - obviously it isn't, and I should have read Brian Brooks booklet more closely.
As you point out, the letter followed by digits was some form of register No. used by the factory, which may have helped to record a manufacturing date or other production information etc.........and probably we shall now never know exactly to what these details referred. It seems quite remarkable that no two appear to have the same details - perhaps each glass maker had his own quality control No. which was engraved onto those measures made by him.?
Must be careful when using the word 'register', since in this instance it refers not only to the factory's own records of the letters and Nos. engraved on the measures, but also refers to the Board of Trade design Registration system. Brooks does provide the actual B. of T. Rd. Nos. at the back of his book (page 33), for the three designs he shows - Rd. Nos. 110942 and 43, and 237141........ I haven't looked these up, but am sure they'll be in either Thompson or the Blue Book, depending on when they were Registered with the Board of Trade. Somewhere I probably have pix of the original drawings of these designs.
As you'll know, glass designs Registered with the Board of Trade, often have the Rd. No. included somewhere on them - either engraved or as part of the pressing. Possibly because these items are small it may have been impracticable to include the Rd. No. details - are you aware of any examples of these measures (from any source come to that) which actually show the B. of T. Rd. No.
These are interesting items of antiquity - would seem we are looking for the remaining centre design from Brooks' book to complete the trio - they don't seem to have survived in quantity.
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I don't have access to either Thompson or the Blue Book. I would love to see pix of the original drawings. I have a couple of non-sealed measures that could be using the centre design, but Brooks book shows only rough composites. My measures have a little dimple cut between the vertical cuts on the bulbous base. I have yet to find a B. of T. number on any of my measures.
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attached are four pix ............. one each for Rd. Nos. 110942 and 110943 - both Registered on 20th August 1857, and two pix for Rd. 237141 which was Registered on 14th December 1869.
I've added a close-up pic of the neck for Rd. 237141 just to show that the lead seal used on the original drawing submitted for this particular design included the motif for the city of Glasgow - which is what you'd expect to see on the seal for 1869 - this motif was dropped in 1879 when the monarch's initial plus Verification Nos. were adopted. If you can't see the details on the seal, it does in fact show a tree with a bird on top, a bell hanging from a branch, and a salmon with a ring in its mouth. According to Brian Brooks, Glasgow adopted this motif in 1866.
Coming back to Brooks hand drawn illustrations of the three designs we've already mentioned, it does appear that his comments (page 22) wrongly date two of these designs. His booklet mentions that "Three designs were registered by the Glasgow firm of James Couper & Sons in 1869/1870 (see Note 3)".
In fact two of these - namely 110942 and 43 were both Registered on 20th August 1857 - some few years earlier than he states.
It's worth also commenting on the most recent of these designs (Rd. 237141) - the only measure with the lead seal. Examples of this design with a tree/bird/salmon on the seal can be dated to between 1870 when the patent came into effect, and 1879 when the tree was dropped in favour of the Verification Nos.
There were no lead seals in use prior to 1870.
It's odd that no examples of these Richardson measures appear to show any of these three Rd. Nos. - perhaps one might turn up some day.
Hope these pix of of some interest.
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The pictures are incredible...!!!!! I love them. :=) Where are they from? Was most commercial glass registered? When did the registration start? How was the catalogue sequenced? Is it possible to find entries for Couper and Son? Or is it sequential? Knowing the stamp on my Mystery Measure is ER, could a search starting a 1900 forward be possible? Would a copy of the registration/drawing be available in Canada somewhere? I'm just a newbie when it comes to searching out something like this.
Which brings me back to my Mystery Measure. I tried to contact Mrs. J. Hayhurst who is mentioned in Brian Brooks book. I haven't got a reply yet. I was hoping she may be able to shed some light on this.
Thanks for finding the registration drawing. I really appreciate it.
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hello Barry - regret to say that images of British Board of Trade design Registrations are available only from The National Archives in London. I believe that researchers employed by this facility will carry out investigations for you, but this is expensive.
However, there are one or two published books which provide a list of those numbers allocated to glass (CLASS III), and these books include other details such as........date of Registration, name of manufacturer/registrant.
The absence of an image does lessen the usefulness of such information, but if you have just the occasional request, I'm sure we can probably assist with a picture.
Don't think that your mystery seal will be of any help in relation to these Board of Trade Registered designs, and regret to say you won't find this information in Canada.
Using one of the books which lists these Registered Nos., you could scan through for James Couper & Sons, but regret I've no idea if other numbers occur, for them, additional to those three we've discussed above.
Registration (in the U.K.) started about 1842, and continued in one form or another, I think, until more or less the end of the C20. We have others here who are far more knowledgeable on the history of Registrations of British pressed glass, and they may wish to add their thoughts here.
Other countries had similar systems I believe, but the numbers we're discussing in this thread refer to glass made within the U.K. (there are exceptions I believe where some Continental made pieces imported into the U.K. - are Registered in the U.K. to a British based Registrant).
Of the Books referred to, you may find the following of most use (covering the Victorian period almost entirely) .........
'English Pressed Glass 1830 - 1900' - Raymond Slack - pub. 1987
'The Identification of English Pressed Glass - 1842 to 1908 - Jenny Thompson (plus the Supplement).
and following on from those two is......
'The Glass Association - Registration Numbers 1908 - 1945 (referred to usually as 'The Blue Book) - because it's blue ;D
Unfortunately, specialist books like these are often expensive - and occasionally out of print, so be prepared for disappointment.
You didn't mention contacting Brian Brooks (is he no longer with us??) - hope you do get a reply from Jeanette Hayhurst.
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Mr Brooks decanter and measure collection was auctioned August 2012. I don't know if he is still alive or not. I haven't been successful in my search for him. I purchased a couple of measures from Jeanette Hayhurst a couple of years ago that appeared in Mr. Brooks book when she had a shop in London. She has since moved to Tetbury and in a couple of correspondence since my purchase I haven't got a response from her.
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unfortunately, interest in these measures seems always to have been at a low level. Andy McConnell's decanter book gives them scant mention, and from memory Charles Hajdamach's book on C19 glass doesn't include them, and I can't think off-hand of any other books worth trying.
Other sources of potential help within the U.K. are Broadfield House Glass Museum or the glass and ceramics department at the Victoria & Albert Museum. Could also try The Glass Association to see if anyone there is current researching these things.
Don't know if any of the large breweries might have a museum that would cover this sort of thing - anyway best of luck, and if you crack it so to speak do let us know. :)
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I have found Miniature Decanters and Whisky Measures by Stephen Perry the only other reference besides Brian Brooks book.
I don't understand why there isn't more interest in them. I feel that the urbanization through the industrial ages have made the pub a central part of the common person's life. And individual decanters and measures a part of that.
Thank you for conversing with my. I really appreciate it.
Barry
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PS I'll post something if I solve my mystery
;)