Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: goyjus on June 16, 2014, 01:38:57 PM
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I was wondering if anyone could help with the attached.
I'm pretty sure it's Georgian/Regency but was wondering if it may be an early Waterford piece?
Is there any way to distinguish between English and Irish glass of this period?
Many thanks in advance.
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I know nothing about this but Scottish cut glass shouldn't be forgotten
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Perish the thought!
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hello Anthony
Dudley Westropp is on record as having cautioned against making factory attributions, especially those to Waterford, although he did go on to say that 'probably' there are certain characteristics that suggest Waterford cutting styles.
Your bowl is of a shape that was common for the period 1820 - 30 (and certainly a shape made by Waterford) - but the cutting on that factory's examples look to be more ornate..............rather than simply plain relief diamonds topped with a band of fan escalop/splits like this one. The knop is o.k. and the ray cutting is about right, but the plainness of the diamonds don't look particularly Waterford, and not early Waterford which I assume would be last quarter C18.
Normally we get very hung up on colour with these things, but Thorpe is on record as having said of Waterford that....."the metal of Waterford glass is extremely clear and white in colour.......There is evidence............... that the firm were at special pains to secure a good, clear white metal".
You don't comment as to why you consider this to be Georgian/Regency - we've discussed this Anglo-Irish matter several times - attribution is difficult, and many of the known Irish pieces come with cast iron provenance, or at the least with a design that matches the catalogues - shape alone is no good, unfortunately.
You've not given the height, but would assume this is about 5 - 6 inches - and what is the extent of wear or stones/seeds?
I get the impression that the majority of pieces of this shape we made as covered urns - i.e. they had lids - and those made simply as bowls are much in the minority.
No reason why this couldn't be period, but my opinion is probably not Irish - regrettably I have little or no knowledge of Scottish glass from the early C19, but Christine may well be correct.
You might find Phelps Warren's book on Irish Glass useful - that's unless you already have it :)
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Hi Paul
Thanks for taking the time and trouble to give such a considered response.
To fill in the gaps: the piece is approx 4.75in high to top of fan cut around the rim and approx 5.5in at widest point.
I have found a very similar piece on eBay which is listed as Waterford, recent Waterford, but there are subtle differences to the cut, notably between the 'fans'. There are also striations to the clear band of glass between the rim and the diamond cut of the body.
Also, it just doesn't feel like a modern/recent piece. That's a difficult thing to put into words but the best way I can describe it is that, while it feels like an extremely high quality piece, it doesn't have the precise, contrived perfection of something that was made yesterday.
I've found two remarkably similar pieces described as Georgian and Regency. The colour, while clear, is not the brilliant white clarity of modern pieces.
Please do let me know if there is anything else you need to know or see to refine your opinion.
Many thanks!
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Also, not sure what is meant by 'stones/seeds'
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hi - the stones/seeds comment refers to the quite common occurrence - in C19 glass - of the presence of some, usually, non-silica contamination from the sand, or the furnace. These are seen mostly as white or black specks (sometimes bigger) and might be undissolved raw materials or impurities from the pots.
Some people also refer to the very small bubbles as seeds.
I agree with your comments about 'doesn't feel like a modern piece' - there is something about table glass approaching 200 years old, that has a certain something. Usually, it's wear, colour, damage, stones/seeds, often a combination of all these features - something that new glass doesn't have.
Have to say that I'm not entirely sure of the meaning of striations... might this be a waviness within the glass?
Ebay attributions/provenance, without qualified evidence of some sort, should be treated with caution - this auction site is littered with descriptions that use word associations to increase value. A vast amount of glass described as Georgian (1714 to 1830) may well not be, although there are some reputable sellers.
There are Waterford catalogues, somewhere, but I've now forgotten who has them.
I would expect to see some damage on a fan escallop border such as yours - unless you've paid a fortune - and wear on the underside of the foot should also be very noticeable, together with some damage to the points of the diamonds.
Probably almost impossible to be certain of an id - and as I say the cutting/design is a not uncommon style and in my opinion too plain for Waterford. Nice piece though, and at least you aren't missing a lid.
Of course, other people might have different ideas - let's hope someone else looks in :)
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Thanks Paul.
Yes, by striations, I did mean waviness. Wasn't sure what term to use. But it's not perfect, 'flat' glass. There are very feint ridges which can be seen and felt.
There are a few bubbles but the only discernible damage is flea bites to the radial cut of the base.
I've included a couple of links for reference:
http://www.onlinegalleries.com/art-and-antiques/detail/a-fine-quality-regency-diamond-cut-fan-edged-fruit-bowl/90215
http://www.legacyantiques.co.uk/index.php/glass/19th-century-glassware/bowls/late-georgian-highly-cut-lead-crystal-fruit-bowl.html
Many thanks again for your post.
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thanks for the links - prices for undamaged pieces are indeed high, and I'm very impressed with the word 'circumferential' - what happened to horizontal mitres, or prismatic cutting, I wonder ;)
Is it possible that your 'faint ridges which can be seen and felt' might be the remains of grinding/polishing marks - as opposed to true striations formed during the mixing of the batch, or cooling in the lehr?
Probably best to avoid the word striations I suspect, unless you feel really sure of the cause.
As a final comment - always remember that some of the best glasshouses in Europe produced their share of neo-Georgian glass in the last years of the C19, and then another revival occurred in the 1930's.
It's not an area for the faint-hearted - and pieces don't come with labels or backstamps ;D
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Many thanks for this, Paul.
No, not an area for the faint hearted. Seems a bits of a minefield - in a quagmire. Or vice versa. Anyhoo...
Will let you know if further research proves fruitful!