Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Murano & Italy Glass => Topic started by: rocco on July 13, 2014, 12:43:42 PM
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Yet another Murano elephant :), i think a little older than the golden Fratelli Toso one I posted yesterday.
Height 19 cm, white "lattimo" glass with a slight bluish hue...
According to >> this Murano elephant collector (http://muranoanimalcollection.webs.com/rarelattimoelephant.htm) difficult to attribute, but probably dating from the 1930s to 40s, either by Vetreria Artistica Barovier or Ferro Toso Barovier Vetrerie Artistiche Reunite S. A.
Anita has a beautiful one in her zoo, lattimo with gold, also attributed to Vetreria Artistica Barovier.
Thanks,
MIchael
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Oooh! Michael I have just the spot for that one! :)
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WOW Stupendous . ::) :'(
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Thank you both :)
Michael
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Wonderful elephant, but I haven't a clue. It is different than the VA Barovier elephants I've seen. Those usually have the tails that end with being attached to the right leg, then snipped. I'm not really sure if the 1930s elephants in the zoo are Barovier. I think the little white one is, but I'm beginning to think the black one might be VAMSA -- nothing definite, just a suspicion. These older elephants can be difficult.
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Thank you Anita!
I assume the general agreement is that the elephant dates to the 1930s/40s? (Maker unknown...)
Michael
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I personally have little doubt that this elephant is made in Murano and then I do not understand what it means (lattimo)
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Ottogrunf,
Lattimo is a term started in North AMerica to mean white glass. It's not a Murano term, which would explain why you don't understand what it means. I led a one person campaign to stop the use of the term, but was swamped by current usage.
David
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Oh, I should know better than repeating wrong internet terminology ;D
What would be the proper term for this type of glass? Just opaque white? Or is this "pasta vitrea"?
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edit: I just found that the Loschs do use this term on their site on Venitian glass techniques: http://www.the-loschs.com/ittec.html (http://www.the-loschs.com/ittec.html)
Company: Venini, Design: lattimo
87 - 92 lattimo / lattimo aurato / argentato
Opaque white glass / with gold / silver foil.
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@Ottogrunf: I am not sure if I understand correctly, but do you think the elephant is not from Murano?
I hadn't considered that possibility, but who knows... Where else could it have been made?
Michael
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I think the correct term is "latticino" product that is used by the glassmakers of Murano with whom I have spoken several times
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I'm a bit confused. Latticino is a type of filigrana that has spiraling filaments. I won't go into color, because that is so debated on GMB. Lattimo in the US is called "milk glass." It has a certain chemistry, so I'm not going to argue strongly what is and isn't lattimo. The elephant does look like what I would call lattimo. I didn't know until now that the word was controversial.
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Here is the cmog definition of lattimo and a picture of a bowl. http://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/lattimo
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Thanks.
I draw one conclusion from this discussion -- Murano terminology is a minefield 8)
At least the obvious blueish hue to the joins of my ellie seems to be quite distinctive...
Michael
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The way the feet are constructed looks fairly distinctive Michael - that 'pinched' form.
For what it is worth... there is another with similar feet (and other differences) shown on page 267, Murano Island of Glass by Attilia Dorigato. It is in red with gold leaf and is attributed to MVM Cappellin & Co (from the collection of Marino Barovier).
John
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I find many of my Italian glass books call it Lattimo , so that will do me Laticino is something entirely different Otto.
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Thanks John, JP.
I found quite a few similarish elephants on the web, nearly all of them said to be made in the 1930s...
Interesting that they managed to make the piece without a pontil mark ;)
Michael
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Oh, it has a pontil mark. They stick a tail on it most of the time. :D
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Ah, that's where it is -- there had to be one ;D
Michael
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Here is a link to an MVM Cappellin elephant.....(similar to the one mentioned above)
http://www.antiquehelper.com/item/353158
What a great find ! Ta, Mike.
p.s. some Cappellin fish ....the eyes are similar.
http://www.artericerca.com/Vetro%20Murano/MVM%20Cappellin%20&%20C/MVM%206.htm
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Oops! And Ooops again. Many apologies. The term that doesn't exist in MUrano is latticino, not lattimo, which is, indeed, white glass. Moral, don't post without checking.
Sorry, Michael.
David
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No problem David :)
Murano terminology is a minefield, and to be honest I just repeated the term "Lattimo" without checking at all...
Thank you for the links Mike. I saw the stunning red/gold one when searching for other elephants. I checked mine very carefully, but no etched mark to be found.
I guess that many companies may have made similar pieces (as usual with Murano designs once they become popular)
Michael
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hello guys I hope my English is understandable I have to say that several phone calls were necessary to understand what the term "lattimo" is correct when it comes to glass milky white from what I understand some of the glass workers use the word Venetian "latisin "that it was logical for me to translate latticino. even in the vocabulary barovie and toso uses the word lattimo
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That is a lovely elephant and I'm very pleased to see one similar to mine (I own the white Murano glass elephant you mention in your opening post). I only made an educated guess as to its attribution. Looking at the characteristics of your elephant such as the recessed feet and tusks, these are definitely similar if not identical to mine. There are differences too however, such as the eyes, the segmented trunk and the tail, which on my elephant is attached to the leg and clipped. Perhaps they have a common maker, most likely we'll never know.
The white and gold elephant shown on Anita's Murano Zoo is now displayed on the Moltabellaglass website (display only, not for sale). The black elephant she mentions is sitting on a shelf in front of me and I never cease to marvel at this little Murano art glass masterpiece (thanks Anita!). Anita and I had many discussions in the past about these two elephants so I'm very interested to read she now thinks it may be VAMSA.
Gordon
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I found the reference to the other lattimo elephant I mention on my website. It's at http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1682892
There are similarities and dissimilarities to our elephants.
Gordon
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Hi Gordon,
thank you very much for your comment, great that you joined the board! :)
You have a lovely Murano elephant collection, the Martinuzzi one is certainly my favourite.
And lots of interesting info on your website.
Really not easy to attribute these pieces. Thanks for the link to the other white elephant, the glass looks more translucent than in our lattimo ones, though...
Michael
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Thanks Michael. Glad you like the website. I haven't bought any elephants for a while but always keeping a lookout.
I do love the imposing Martinuzzi elephant as well but the black & gold elephant is just so beautiful and so perfect, it takes my breath away every time I look at it.
Enjoy your lovely lattimo elephant!
Gordon
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Found this one recently, the body is blown, the limbs and head are solid, 20cm tall.
John
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http://www.muranonet.com/glossary/entry/lattimo
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Very nice elephant, John.
I think the body of my "lattimo" one is solid (hard to tell for sure ;-))
The one of my golden Fratelli Toso elephant is hollow like yours, but otherwise quite different with his cute big ears and eyes...
Thanks Ivo for the link to the Murano glossary. Interesting reading...
Michael
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The elephant is a bit battered but I just could not resist it's mammoth charms. :D
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Yet another Murano elephant ;D
I'm not starting a new thread for this one, as it seems impossible to attribute these elephants anyway.
A little bit smaller (13 cm tall, 15 cm long), but more detailed than the lattimo one,
Made of opalescent white glass, with a lovely golden glow when held against the light.
Murrine eyes, the tusks are clear glass with applied gold foil. (A more uncommon feature it seems).
Thanks,
Michael
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That is glorious Michael, and like your other ellies, I would happily find a home for it. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. :) Rosie.
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Thank you, Rosie :)
(If I ever should consider parting with any of my elephants, you will be the first to know).
Yes, he is really lovely, I like that there is so much detail to him (though the basic construction is the same in all these "older" Murano elephants).
And I have a soft spot for opalescent glass...
Michael
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Thank you Michael, I'll keep checking to see if they need a home then ! :) Rosie.