Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Unresolved Glass Queries => Topic started by: thomasandkatherine on May 29, 2006, 06:43:47 AM
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Can anyone help with an ID and date for this small pressed glass spill or vase. It is oval shaped, footed and has a female cameo in lozenge one one side and a star or sun motif on the other. It stands around 9.5cm tall. I am sure I have seen the hand drawn app for registered design somewhere but cannot remember where, who it was registered for and what the date was. Any ideas amongst the experts out there???
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2117
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If I was to guess I would say Sowerby?
Perhaps someone with an early Sowerby catalogue will know?
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Has it got any marks?
Sowerby often have the peacock mark very obscured, right on the bottom or side of the INSIDE of the vase, not like other people who sensibly put the marks on the outside.... :D
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Hello:
A very interesting piece. I would love to see the pattern on the reverse of this little posy. I think that the person shown is Queen Victoria. The design of this piece is definitely related to the posey showing Victoria and Albert in this auction :
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6629377799
The ebay item is shown on page 19 of "Pressed Glass Commemoratives, A Collector's Companion" by Vivien Walker & Susan Biss. They indicate that it may have been from the Royal Wedding in 1840 or the 1851 Exhibition. Known in black, blue and turquoise. Further they suggest an American origin. This latter statement is almost certainly wrong as this has so many English design elements.
Sid
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Hi Sid,
This latter statement is almost certainly wrong as this has so many English design elements.
What would you say were the English design elements in this posy?
Regards
Chris
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Chris:
Assuming we are talking about the ebay item, the main elements that scream English to me are:
- the rim - this of similar is found on several small creamers, sugars and poseys that come out of England
- the fact that it is known in black
- the patriotic flower symbols
As well, the posey itself is not an North American item.
Sid
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Hi Sid,
Interesting. I would have said none of those reasons except the patriotic flowers would be indicative of English manufacture. And if it were made for the English market then the patrioric flower are again not an indicator.
Regards
Chris
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Chris:
Here are a number of pictures showing pieces that I think are related to the black posey that started this discussion and the blue example from ebay.
Three pieces of an ivy pattern in black. These are a creamer and sugar and a posey all quite small - the sugar basin is 3 3/8 inches tall. There is also a full size creamer and sugar and celery vase. Other colours available are blue, a greeny blue or teal and clear. These small examples show up on ebay.uk fairly freqently and in North American rarely. The glass is what North American call flint which means it contains lead. Note the rims on these pieces.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/sid.lethbridge/English_Ivy.jpg
Next, a full size celery vase and a little creamer with country scenes in an oval frame. These also show up on ebay.uk although less frequently. I have only seen clear. Again there are small and large versions of the creamer so I expect that there are matching sugars out there somewhere. Glass is flint (lead containing glass). Again note the rims on these pieces and compare to the poseys.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/sid.lethbridge/Celery.jpg
http://www3.sympatico.ca/sid.lethbridge/creamers.jpg
I am absolutely convinced that all of these examples are English in origin based on design, manufacturing characteristics, colour, where they show up etc. I also think that they are all from the same firm based on the design similarities and colours that they are known in.
Sid
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I have the creamer and sugar in flint - I think we discussed these a while back here on the board, didn't we? Mine were found in Winchester many years ago. The designs on the panels are fascinating and (imho) they are very similar to several Carnival Glass designs (inspirations maybe?)
Glen
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Hi Sid,
The celery I do not believe to be English. The style does not match any known English celeries I have encounted. Perhaps the windmill also a clue. The only example of pressed glass I know which has a windmill is a small Davidson can. That does not lead me to think all glass with windmills is likely toe be English.
I think generalisations arfe very dangerous and misleading. For example I could make the generalisation that all pressed glass with the rough background effect as in the ebay item are continental. The reason I could make this generalisation is I have been looking through Pressedglass-korresondze recently and that effect comes up time and time again on continental pressed glass.
I remember in the early days of collecting cloud glass the received wisdom was if it is cloud glass it must be Davidson. Not true.
Regards
Chris
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Mr. Stewart:
I absolutely agree that generalizations are dangerous. I tried not to make any. My initial point was that it is unlikely that the ebay posey was made in the United States. I have put forth my thoughts concerning the piece in question and provided specific examples to back up my reasoning.
Even more dangerous than generalizations is a closed mind. Please read your last response. I don't know what the expression in the UK would be, but here in Canada we would say "Give your head a shake!". If you look at a catalog issued by Davidson, Sowerby or others, you will see numerous examples of celeries with similar styles. Not the same pattern, but similar styles. For example- Davidson 214, 215, 223. It is quite possible that there are continental examples that also fit this style but that would also support my initial point.
I welcome a response concerning these apparently related pieces from anyone who can add to the discussion in a positive manner.
Sid Lethbridge
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Mr Lethbridge,
I thought I was making a positive point - generalisations can be misleading. I release you were making the point that the eBay item was not made in the US, but I was also putting forward arguments that it was not necessarily made in the UK.
There are similarity in styles made in the UK and the continent, and hence one has to be careful in attribution if there is no supporting documentation. I am currently researching a sequel to our book – Davidson glass a history. The sequel, called Davison glass an identification guide, will be an identification guide for all Davidson glass from 1867 to 1987. In doing this research I have found many examples where similar styles have been made both by Davidson and other companies, both in the UK and abroad. The conclusion, therefore, is that one has to be careful when attributing items to a particular factory or country without supporting evidence. Past experience in the area of cloud glass, also makes me very cautious when identifying glass.
In the case of the celery vase, I was simply pointing out that the windmill motif is not usually found on Victorian glass made in the UK, the only example I am aware of is the can mentioned in my previous post. Footed celery vases were made in the UK and the continent, so shape is not a good enough indicator alone.
I am sorry that you mistook the tone of my last post. It was intended to further the discussion. If you feel I should go and ‘shake my head’, and are not willing to listen to another with experience in this field then I will not continue to contribute to this post.
Regards
Chris
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This is a good discussion ... and I want to see it continue.
My wife and I looked most carefully at the blue piece on eBay. We have a large collection of British pressed glass (including pieces commemorating the marriage of Victoria and Albert), and a number of books which contain portraits or photographs of other likenesses of Victoria and Albert. We both felt that the portrait on the blue piece was not Victoria. We will be doing some comparisons with Continental pieces to see where that leads.
On the matter of styles and similarities, I would note that designs in glass have a way of leaping from continent to continent quite readily. I have 10 or 12 examples of Harry Northwood's work between 1889 and 1910 which link directly to British production or to his training in art.
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Chris:
Obviously, I took your previous note the wrong way. I couldn't understand what the windmill had to do with our debate and took it as sarcasm. Your most recent post makes the point of your response easier to comprehend. I hope that we can continue this discussion.
Sid
Jim:
Interesting thought. I would interested in what you find but feel that this is Victoria and Albert.
At first sight, the portrait on the blue posey is similar to the portrait designed by William Wyon on this medal for the 1851 Great Exhibition:
http://www.christophereimer.co.uk/single/9018.html
But there are a few obvious differences - on the medal Victoria has a laurel in her hair and has earrings and a necklace while on the posey she has a crown and no jewelry. Victoria's image on the blue posey looks more like her image on the penny black which was inturn inspired by the City Medal designed by Wyon in 1837:
http://imagesoftheworld.org/stamps/wyon.htm
It would be helpful if the original poster could provide a closeup of the person on the black posey and a photo of the reverse side.
Sid