Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on August 12, 2014, 02:04:40 PM
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Hi all,i found these Stuart glasses recently depicting the not very pc subject of cock fighting,3 acid etched and 3 engraved,no pontil marks and the acid etched ones with rd numbers,to me they look like jelly glasses,but because they seem fairly recent i wondered when they became unfashionable,or perhaps they didn't?many thanks.
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not something I've seen before - you don't give dimensions, and not easy to judge size. They may well be jellies..... Not really sure when jellies ceased, but I've seen some that don't look to be more than 20 - 30 years old, but perhaps they just had a lot of tlc. Perhaps others will have that answer.
The etched ones look to be from the Stratford Rings service (mould blown apparently) and there were many different shapes in the service, with each being given a separate Rd. No., and I'm sure Stuart must have produced a jelly glass, although can't remember if I've seen one or not.
The type of decoration might indicate these were made specifically for a certain outlet or group of people.
What is the Rd. No. on the etched pieces please - and are the slices on the engraved pieces moulded or cut?
Sorry this isn't much help - hope someone else can offer more information. :)
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These must be very rare, (good luck getting a set), my friend has the coloured fighting cocks decanter and six glasses set and i have never seen these before, the top three looks similar to Dorset, i have a couple of those somewhere with out the cocks but the stem is not the same as these. There must be someone somewhere in the world desperate for one of these to make up a set, the size and like Paul says the rd number ( you need to get it put in the title so a google search will pick it up) will give everyone on here and anyone who does a future search a clue to the age and pattern. I have just sold a pair of Syllabub glasses by Dartington looked 80's in date i think by Frank Thrower almost identical to my old Victorian ones apart from there crystal white and without the polished pontil.
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The rd number on the etched glasses is 681652 and they are all about 2.75",the engraved ones have good wear to the base and i think cut and then polished and the engraving itself seems good especially the wing detail,i'll take better photos when i get the better camera,Chris i wonder if the owner replaced the engraved ones with the etched because he couldn't find any originals?
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These are two different sets, if you got them from a charity shop they always throw away any damaged ones for health and safety reasons and most only sell pairs, even numbers, there are a few of the Stratford rings ones on google.http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/1921-6-stuart-crystal-stratford-design-cocktail-glass-with-cockfighting-birds-motif/1073801179
Would that not be the standard size for a cordial glass 2 7/8ths, or there about.
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According to the Blue Book Rd. 681652 was registered by Stuart on 12th March 1921, and on the same day they were also allocated 681649/50/51 - so a total of four Nos. on the same date.
What the other Nos. referred to I don't presently know, but can look in the Kew records when I next visit,
unless of course someone else already knows to what the others refer.
I'd say it's unlikely that any of these four Nos. refer to etched or engraved decoration - it's usually shapes only that were being registered.
The early 1920's were a time of prolific Rd. activity for Stuart, no doubt a lot of which were for items in the Stratford Rings service - some of which continued well into the 1970's it seems. Unfortunately, there really isn't any paperwork easily available showing the factory's designs - from memory believe there were limited editions (expensive) of some volumes with information collected by Mr. Gulliver, but now not sure.
I've looked in the Miller's/McConnell book, where he devotes several pages to Stuart, but don't see anything in the way of decoration showing cock fighting etc. - neither does there appear to be anything in CH's second book - so no clue as to when this decoration was produced. Certainly it mustn't be assumed - as is often wrongly the case - that decoration (or manufacture come to that) is related to the date of Registration.
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just in passing ............ one of the four Nos. that can be eliminated is 681649 - which as can be seen from the attached Glass Gallery link was the original 1921 registration for the Stratford Rings desert/sweet dish. The same shape is also shown in Dodsworth's 'British Glass Between The Wars' with acid etched decoration, and subsequently appeared in amber and green.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10003/thumb_681649.jpg
I've looked at all of the Stuart pieces in Dodsworth and there's nothing with either etched or engraved fighting cocks etc., so bit of a mystery.
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Paul what's this "blue book" you keep refering to and how can i get a copy?.
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I've been searching the net and a thread from 2004 popped up from here between Ray and Bernard C about an air threaded Stuart wine glass with a engraved scene of a cock fight.
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Chris - it's become a habit refer to 'The Glass Association' publication as simply the 'The Blue Book' - the reason being that the covers are blue ;D
A twentyfour page booklet listing British Board of Trade Registration Nos., for glass related items, from 29.02.1908 to 23.08.1945. It provides the corresponding name of the registrant and date of registration.
Published in 1996, its purpose was to continue where Jenny Thompson stopped which was 1908.
I've a feeling that it is no longer available - I know Fred was after a copy. You might try Broadfield House Glass Museum, but fairly sure they've all gone, unfortunately.
In view of Bats comments about Ray and Bernard - then possibly Bernard might be able to add some information. :)
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That will be this thread http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,661.0.html
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oopps,i've just put my reply onto the original thread,i don't know if that can be changed? ::) ::) ::)
[Mod: I will remove the post from the other thread. In the meantime, your comment is added below:]
Yup that's the thread thanks,the engraved ones have tha Stuart with the pigs tail on it's own.
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Here's a better photo of the engraving,are we going with jelly glasses?
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It's possible these engraved pieces are - the slightly everted rim and short stem are features of jellies, but they are almost too short - are those panels cut or moulded?? - could be wrong but they look moulded to me - look closely against a good light - if they're cut then you should see some remains of the lines from the wheel no matter how well they were polished - these line will run at 90 degrees to the axis of the stem.
Jellies, generally, tended to be slimmer and taller than custards most of which, post 1850, had handles anyway - jellies didn't - have a look in S. & F.
Are you able to take pic of the backstamp on these engraved pieces ?? - it won't tell us what they were designed for or exactly when they were produced, but might give a pointer to period of manufacture.
As we don't know the Rd. No. for these engraved pieces, it's not easy to run them down in the Archives - and the Board of Trade details rarely give descriptions of use. There was a flurry of Stuart Registrations between 1914 and 1922, and it takes a lot of time to investigate all of them.
I've looked at the Board's 05 Crystal designs where there are a fair number of Stuart pieces but it doesn't appear that anyone has logged the shape/pattern of these engraved examples.
So afraid for the time being no further forward on the engraved glasses, but like the analogy of monkeys with typewriters knocking out the works of Shakespeare, potentially, given time we might run down the Registration details.
I now have Kew pix for the four Rd. Nos. 681649 to 52 (which includes the op's etched examples of 681652 in this thread) and, as you'd imagine, none of the images shows any form of decoration - just a plain outline shape. However, in view of their design they all appear to be from the Stratford Rings service and in view of the stem shape and size look more to be forms of drinking glasses, but that's just my opinion - again they don't come with descriptions of use.
Stratford Rings is an unmistakable design, and was produced for eons it seems, and it's not possible to say with any certainty when the Gumtree link cocktail glasses - quoted as Rd. 681616 - might have been made - the shape was certainly Registered in March 1921, but Stuart continued to produce cocktail glasses and shakers for a couple of decades after. It doesn't appear that anyone has posted a pic of Rd. 681616 on the 05 Crystal site, yet.
Coming back to Ray's 'cock fighting' engraved pieces, I thought at first that they had red bowls - until I realized he'd put some plonk in them ;)
I appreciate that Bernard had already dated these particular glasses - based possibly on the style of backstamp perhaps - to the 1920's - although have to say that I'm unable to find any book examples of Stuart glasses with air twists like Ray's from that period.
There are, however, some designs from Luxton from the 1950's and early 1960's that did have similarly designed stems plus part acid etched and part engraved decoration (commemoratives I believe). Can anyone point me to book examples of Stuart glasses, with air twists, that would date to before WW II?
Apologies that this is long winded - again. :)
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correction to my comment .........."I appreciate that Bernard had already dated these particular glasses - based possibly on the style of backstamp perhaps - to the 1920's"
Before he shoots me.... In fact it appears that Bernard wasn't actually suggesting a date for these pieces, but rather implying that the mark in question was indicating from 'Dodsworth from 1926, Jackson from 1927.
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Thanks Paul,here are the bases and i hope Big B doesn't bully you to much ;) ;)Chris suggested cordials and that could be the case.
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And yes probably moulded,i couldn't see any lines.
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not being a sophisticated drinker, please tell me what a cordial would be :)
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"What does the pope drink"..."creme de memthe"....,"i'll have a pint of that then...,"sorry couldn't resist an old Billy Connolly joke,before i got intersted in glasses i thought cordial was a fruit drink you 'd add water to and i'm sure you know more about it than me Paul,but is it also some sort of fortified wine?that glasses have been made for.
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nope - wasn't joking - whatever it is I don't drink it :)
My mother said don't drink, don't smoke and don't go with wimmin, and you'll live till you're 90.
Wots the point if I can't do any of that. ;)
Like you I thought that cordial was a watered down fruit juice.
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Interesting point Paul,becacause older glasses described as cordials seem to be small i made a mental jump to alcohol,perhaps a fruit base topped up with a spirit, like a sort of eau-de -vie.