Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: rachnathanking on August 13, 2014, 09:58:10 AM
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Please help identify this beautiful piece of glass.
It measures 2.75" high and 2.25" wide. It is quite heavy. It weighs 276g.
Thanks!
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With a bottom finish like that it has to be Chinese. The colours are pointing in that direction as well.
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I would disagree. It looks very much like 1950s or 60s Murano, possibly AVEM, often described as Tutti Frutti. Both the shape and unpolished base are not unusual for these little vases.
John
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the colours are easily checked on google images I think.
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not my area but ........... comparing with some of the pix in Leslie Pina's 'Fifties Glass' - it does appear that the pink and blue are too bright - but aside from that the extreme coarseness of the base finish would be what you'd expect on a Chinese piece.
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The colours are bright but I suspect that is because they are on a white background, that white background is unusual - the first I remember seeing anyway. The backgrounds are often red or green, occasionally blue. The first of the following, the vase with a green background also had an unpolished base - this is not unusual for these items.
the extreme coarseness of the base finish would be what you'd expect on a Chinese piece.
It is one clue amongst many, many mass produced Chinese items have polished bases, many items of studio glass have rough bases. On it's own it tells you little.
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I would agree with John that it is a Murano "Tutti Frutti" piece, probably by AVeM.
The base finish is quite unusual for Murano glass, but all of these small vases / toothpick holders have it.
A >> google search (https://www.google.at/search?q=murano+avem+toothpick+holder) shows several similar ones.
I think the colours do stand out more due to the white inner lining.
I have an ashtray with an unusual ivory white casing >> Link (https://picasaweb.google.com/107330317087089352634/Murano?noredirect=1#5923505544992120610). This one does have a polished base, though.
The Chinese Tutti Frutti pieces I have seen so far never had any zanfirico, only bits of canes and murrine...
edit: sorry, cross posting ;D
Michael
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I have a TF bowl to compare. Only reservation I have is the white base & thats only due to having been informed years ago by a knowledgable Murano collector that TF is found solely on either the dark red or black base although that was probably a decade ago so that may have changed.
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I agree with Ivo. I think it is of Chinese origins. They are knocking these off.
Craig
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Can you point to some examples Craig? I have yet to see any Chinese wares quite like this and would appreciate being better informed.
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I have no specific examples saved that I can point to. I have collected Italian glass off and on for about 20 years and the finish on the base of this, and others I see on ebay occasionally are unlike any Italian house I am aware of. Also, IMHO the general look and feel of some of these pieces seen more recently is just not "right" to me.
The Chinese are getting very adept at producing Murano like glass, and I have had pieces you would swear are early Nason and others, that are not Italian in origin. They are actually reasonably good at producing some Czech style glass now also and I have purchased some examples of that and also the Murano style glass to study for tell tale signs.
In the case of this example above, the circle of white in the ground base is a trait one sees on Chinese glass that I do not see on Italian produced glass. That trait alone would keep me from identifying this as a piece of Italian production. Additionally, the completely crude flat grind on the base is not indicative of any Italian house I have any experience with... modern or other, and it is quite indicative of Chinese production.... Yes they are getting better at details like this, but some of it is still produced rather crudely.
We also see Murano style glass coming out of South America (Brazil), but generally that glass is better quality than this, especially when it comes to finishing details and overall execution.
I am attaching an example of a Chinese bowl that is offered on ebay quite regularly as Italian glass by sellers, and the base exhibits the same characteristics as this piece does, especially the ring of white. It is obviously larger on the piece pictured below.
Both my instincts, and also what I know and understand about Italian glass tells me this is not Italian. That is the best I can do for now.
A wise researcher once told me if three things point away from an attribution then it is not. I would point to the following three things I see as pointing away from Italian production:
1) Colors are not quite right, at least to me
2) Circle of white on the base of the glass
3) Crudely flat ground and unpolished base
Hope it helps.
Craig
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In this case Craig I remain unconvinced. Many of these small vases have unpolished bases, they come in many shapes. Would you say this little posy vase was made in China?
I have seen one of the bowls you show with the white base before and have to agree it was a poorly made bit of tat. The trouble is using a white circle on the base to judge quality means that half of the Flygsfors Coquille range would be caught up in the dragnet. As would many other makers.
A given colour will change with background, try painting the same bright colour on top of both black and white.
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I would be more inclined to steer away from Italy with that base.
I did not say I used the white circle to judge quality. The white circle can be OK on some glass... I did not say it was a given for all glass....
I simply meant that for a piece of glass that is supposed to be Italian and possibly AVEM, it is not something that you see and it would steer me away from Italy for a piece like that....
I would not spend my money on a piece represented as Italian that had a base finish such as these examples.
That is what my instinct, experience, and the little voice that talks to me :-) tells me.....
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I am amazed.
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Amazed by what? My opinion? :-)
Craig
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I have seen a fair few with rough bases, both big and small vases, it is a non issue to me. I suppose I am surprised by the inflexibility of your rule that if the base is rough it can not be Murano. There are exceptions to every rule.
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Let me rephrase then.... :-)
When I see these vases, I often think of the huge scandal in Italy a few years back, where Chinese glass was imported to Italy, labeled as Italian, and resold as Italian glass. To me the sudden appearance of the base finishing technique in recent years brings large suspicion on that style of finishing work. One would have to believe that the glass being imported for remarking would have been made in such a manner as to appear Italian, at least reasonably passable as Italian.
I can say that I formed that opinion after handling Italian glass for a very long time, and coming to the realization that the ground bases like this on glass appearing in the style and manner of "Italian or Murano" have really only appeared in the marketplace in the last several years......
I suppose the other possibility is that they could be from a contemporary Italian studio that does not believe in polishing a base at all...... Just grinding them down. I would not rule that one out completely.... but I have serious doubts about the possibility of that one.
Tutti Frutti pieces of glass with unpolished but ground bases did not exist, that I am aware of at least, 10 or more years ago..... now they are fairly frequent.... something changed, and I do not believe it was the production techniques of the Italians....
As far as exceptions to the rule go, I agree...... but as of yet, I have not seen one that I would agree applies here. I am always open to that though....
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Perhaps the European market has escaped the massive influx of Chinese Murano more so than us in the U.S. Over here the Murano market has suffered as more than a few question authenticity especially in light of base treatments that simply were not present 15 years ago & now are commonplace which either means as Craig stated (1) the Murano masters have modified their old established techniques & adopted the unpolished/unfinished bases or (2) its far eastern Murano. Over here the Murano market I think its fair to say has gone into the dumpster because of the massive imports therefore many of us are more than a bit skeptical when so many exceptions keep showing up. All one has to do is check Alibaba Global (mainland China) Chinese Murano productions/offerings to perhaps understand our caution & bye all means pay attention to both the number of offerings & number of suppliers.
http://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/murano-glass-vases.html
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I have been reading this with interst and bored on night's at work i have been looking at the alibaba web link, looked through 1500 bits of glass (there are thousands more) and found these 4 slightly similar to the post and nothing like the quality of Johns.
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Murano-Glass-Vase-Wholesale_1660286913.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Murano-vase-for-home-decor_471279444.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Antique-Murano-Colored-Glass-Vases-Wholesale_1546666589.html
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2012-new-glass-vase_597929946.html
I'm trying to stay out this argument but i have to say John is rarely wrong when it comes to knowing his glass.
Why do they just not polish the glass bases to make a good copy?.
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Why do they just not polish the glass bases to make a good copy?.
The object is to make a passable copy they can sell inexpensively, and quality cold work takes time = costs too much money.
And those examples are simply the examples you can find on there now..... they change a lot..... and unfortunately, that is the mere microscopic tip of a very very large iceberg......
And I agree that John is quite knowledgeable....... this is not about being right or wrong..... it is about perspectives..... and as has been said.... ours here in the colonies may simply be different..... wright or wrong??? who knows.... just different.....
If we all agreed on everything there would be no need for a forum :-)
Craig
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My first reaction was Chinese. The design is just too loose to be Murano for me. Tutti Frutti is usually caked with interesting bits and bobs. Also, the colours seem too pastel. I know that an unfinished base isn't a sure sign of origin, but I've seen very few Murano pieces with unpolished bases.
David
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I am still with John in believing this is Murano (and AVeM) ;D
>> Here (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,42386.0.html) is a comment by Anita *TxSilver* on a (admittedly nicer) Tutti Frutti toothpick holder; it has the same shape, the same unpolished base -- and what seems to be a worn AVeM label.
As I said, I have yet to see a Chinese piece with zanfirico inclusions. The ones brucebanner linked to on alibaba are quite abundant here on the fleamarkets and on ebay, but IMHO don't have much in common with the piece in question.
And especially the pink, yellow and blue twisted canes lined with copper aventurine are quite distinctive, and found in almost any of the AVeM pieces.
The white and blue lining is unusual, but on Wayne's site is another one with a white background >> Link (http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/glass_encyclopedia/murano_glass/avem_glass/avemglass_home.htm) (second row from the bottom).
And I have an ashtray as well with a white background.
(BTW, the big vase was my biggest disappointment yet, as it arrived smashed to 100 pieces due to bad packing. >:(
I glued it back together just to see what it would have looked like...)
Michael
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So the link posted by Michael is an exception to the rule I had not seen previously. I am nowhere near convinced that all pieces in this style are AVEM that have the badly ground bases...... But I will concede that I have now seen something which would make me at least think twice... :-)
Craig