Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: eshearm on August 16, 2014, 09:08:40 AM
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Hi guys can you help confirm or deny this is a murano salviati bowl. It is very light in weight and measures about 12cm across, thanks Em
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I think these are by the Venice and Murano Glass Company Limited - set up by Salviati and produced in London. You had the dates right :-)
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Ivo's comments are confirmed to some degree by one of the images in Simon Cottle's chapter on 'Art and Venetian Studio Glass' - page 75. The illustration - page 74 - shows a similarly shaped bowl with swirl decoration and two opposing applied large prunts, which look to be similar to those on the op's bowl, but Cottle's picture is small it's not possible to be certain that the prunts are identical, but the similarity looks to be close.
Ivo's comment that these would have been produced in London looks to be supported by Cottle, and the date would appear to agree.
Ref. 'Sowerby - Gateshead Glass - Simon Cottle - 1986.
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The dates I have for these Salviati bowls are from 1872 to 1895 (Venetian Glass, Confections in Glass by Sheldon Barr). They would have been made on Murano, Salviati had a shop in London but as far as I know did not manufacture there.
John
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I have a set of very fine cased amber-over-clear finger bowls with slightly crimped and vertical wavy rims and loads of gold foil in, with a very similar foot. I haven't asked for an id for them ever, I suspected Murano and "old" but neither are areas I know much about.
This is what I thought was/presumed to be a "folded foot", Paul. :-[
It has been folded - and shaped from the main body of the piece.
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Got one of these finger bowls too and I was told he did make 'em in London. Never seen any proof of either, though.
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am sure that Ivo and John know more about these wares than me - I got carried away with finding a picture of what seemed a very similar bowl, although it looks to be possible that this piece is attributed to Sowerby. Unfortunately, I can't see the base of the book example so don't know if that is folded or not.
There seems to have been some confusion as to exactly who made some of these pieces - ex Salviati employees who came to the U.K. or made on Murano - certainly it seems that Sowerby "employed for a time a small group of expert glass blowers brought over from Italy". It's worth reading Cottle to realize just how confusing attribution for some of this material seems to have become.
Salviati did have a London shop and as John is saying he may well have sold imported Murano wares only.
Sue, from what I can see of this bowl it doesn't have a folded foot. Plenty of the Venetian Renaissance pieces from the last third of the C19 did have folded feet, and so do many of the pieces made on Murano in the 1950's and '60's - the foot on this bowl looks unusually thick.
If you go on line am sure you will find images of C16 or C17 Venetian pieces with folded feet - the glass is obviously very thin, so folded to strengthen the edge, and the fold is very evident. :)
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Look at the first image, Paul. You can see the edge where the foot has been folded from the body.
I will take some pics of my bowls tomorrow, showing the folding off better.
I did once fill them with water - and one of them ended up with some water inside the foot; there had been an inadequate seal formed between the fold of the foot and the body.
The foot is hollow.
The sort of thing you've been calling a folded foot seem to me (from the couple of illustrations you have shown me) just a simple folding over of an edge of glass, as you say, in order to reinforce the strength. The fold has an edge, an end to it; and the two layers of glass are in full contact.
A completely different thing to this, where the foot has been created by folding the base part of the body of a vessel into a complicated hollow shape and resealing it to the body.
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we may be a little at cross purposes Sue :) - when I speak of a folded foot I'm referring to the traditional Venetian/C18 ale glasses/sugar bowls and the Salviati/Sowerby revival types.....
the outer edge of a thin foot is folded under (some Continental C19 sorts were in fact folded upward) - to a width of something in the region of 0.25" (c. 5 mm) or less. Just a means of strengthening a thin foot rim. Some C18 jellies were provided with a folded top rim.
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Hi guys, brilliant interesting threads thank you, what makes me think this was English made is sides which are lions heads and eater English. This is exceptionally fine and consummate with about 1880 so can we say thus is attributed salviati as a made/imported item? Em
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...
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Not eater sorry I meant rather English
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Venice and Murano Glass Company limited - which is Salviati. We are just quibbling about the place of manufacture and we seem to have deviating information here.
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Thank you, love the deviation though fascinating and informative thanks x
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Just noted the following in the v & a on line
1877 Salviati split up with The Venice and Murano Glass Co. Ltd. At Paris 1878 both companies exhibited independently.
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons but you guys may already know this x
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Salviati needed investors to expand his business and he looked to England for financial backing. On the 21st December 1866 with investors including Sir Austen Henry Layard they set up the company Societa Anonima per azioni Salviati & C., it was based in London and had a factory on Murano. Within two years a second and larger London shop was opened. Tensions grew and in 1872 the company name was changed to Venice and Murano Glass and Mosaic Company Limited (Salviati & C.)
In 1877 Salviati and the English went their separate ways, Salviati was bought out of the company. The company kept the Venice shop and a furnace on Murano.
All the info is from the book I mentioned earlier (Confections in Glass), it goes on to chart Salviati's ongoing progress (like forming another company called Salviati & C...) but there is no more mention of the English players. I have not had a chance to look at the other books for further info, maybe tomorrow.
Just to add another layer of complexity the Salviati shops sold glass made by other furnaces on Murano and of course in was in the same style too.
Sue, there is this kind of 'folded foot' (3rd photo): http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,43932.0.html
where a rim is actually folded right back over very tightly. The original bowl in this thread has a different sort of fold I guess. Same as this little bowl, here looking into it from above: https://picasaweb.google.com/Johnmj100/GlassFromMurano#5906737550716197554
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Hi just found the finger bowl on line for sale, appears it came with a matching plate, but if am happy with my find it's mint no chips or cracks!
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ooooh grrrrrrr, the limitations of comunicating in writing!
I did learn from you, Paul about what you call a folded foot, ie. for the strengthening of thin glass by doubling it over.
I was only poking my nose in here because the bowl in question is an example of a completely different kind of folded foot, and is what I had thought "folded foot" was when you were talking about them at first.
piccies! If you look carefully, you'll see that a dark ring of dust has got trapped in the very fine deep recess of the fold, I left it to illustrate that the recess is there. ;)
I do understand what you mean by folded foot. I was only pointing out, in general, that there other things which can be honestly be described as folded feet. A source of confusion in the terminology. ;D
Not trying to confuse things further, which is what I appear to have done.
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understand perfectly what you mean Sue :) - I think however, that the expression 'folded foot', has entered common glass collecting parlance with the specific purpose of describing those neat folds on the edges of feet of drinking glasses etc..... and it's this feature that most folk will bring to mind ..... rather than the more substantial constructional feature you're suggesting.
apologies to the op that we've digressed slightly - so nothing more about f.f. ;D