Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: chriscooper on August 30, 2014, 02:19:24 PM
-
[Mod: The item discussed in this thread was, a little later, placed on eBay, with a notification in the Market Place forum. Further discussion in that forum took place regarding a "Boffo" attribution, with various comments and opinions, including references to other "Boffo" animals.
After the sale, much of the discussion in the Market Place forum was merged with this thread to retain pertinent details and opinions on attribution. During the merging, some posts were edited to improve spacing of text. Other posts were edited to remove comments relating to people as opposed to the item. Also some posts were removed entirely, especially where comments were related to other earlier comments that had been removed or edited.]
Any opinions on this Whale looks very much Mdina like characteristics maybe MDG
-
Reminds me off: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46607.0.html
The swirly colours and something about the style...
John
-
Without sticking my neck out too much, and there's plenty on here that know much more than I do.
I just know it's 'right' if you understand what I mean John.
Funnily enough I have just used that photo on another board :) to compare.
-
I should add that the second I laid my eyes on your pics, I thought of Patrick's fish too.
I have enlarged and peered at your pics and it looks absolutely right to me too, for early Mdina or perhaps MDG. I reckon it is Boffo, wherever it was made.
There have been a whole load of big fishy things and dolphins all made recently at Mdina, found with plastic labels on (if they are still there), but this is a completely different "kettle of fish" to those.
The newer ones are all just teal with some silver chloride, encased in clear.
(Not that I know anything about animals or pwts.)
-
My guts would be on the side of it having been made at Mdina rather than MDG - simply on the grounds of the style of "all swirly colours in a thick clear casing", something much more Mdina-y than MDG-y to my eyes.
But MDG did all sorts of strange things that are appearing out of the woodwork, (eg Christine's conch shell, and even millifiori pwts have been found, the mystery of the bicolour Japanese-looking upright dolphin things) and there is the unknown of MCG...
My own interest in MDG is primarily confined to green glassware pieces, (no animals, fish or weights.)
-
Thank you Sue, I have put both in the listing but stressed the same I cannot be sure which but 100% sure it was made by his hand.
-
That bluish clear glass is certainly more Mdina than MDG. MDG clear seems to be clear
-
This definitely has a green tint to the glass.
-
I've got a "cube" vase, by Boffo, the casing is very, very yellow, not a good colour at all.
I don't know if it's Mdina or MGD.
An MDG lollipop has a good clear casing - no tinge of colour.
I would agree completely with what you've said in your listing, Chris - 100% Boffo, most likely Mdina (but MDG should not be discounted).
The blue tinge to the clear is more a Mdina thing.
Good luck with it, and sorry to hear of your misfortune. Hope you find something else soon!
-
Hi, I am interested in your Whale but it is not a Boffo design I have ever seen before. As Boffo stuff is rare what provenance do you have for stating this 100% Boffo please. Wolfie
-
No label and no signature on this hitherto unknown piece but then one offs and friggers usually don't. That's the beauty and the mystery of them there only unknown till one turns up.
What known boffo pieces from MDG and Mdina, I presume your talking animals do you mean I can recall a fish and a duck in a similar streaky pattern. I don't think there is any doubt concerning the time frame this whale was made though the general consensus regarding the colours leans towards a Mdina piece rather tham MDG and as Mdina production at that time just didn't include fish I came to the conclusion the only person at Mdina at that time with the skill and inclination to make fish in the style of Murano would have had to be Vicente Boffo himself an Italian.
-
I would say Chris has the same amount of provenance as other pieces that have been previously posted as being by Boffo and seemingly accepted as being so.
I can think of a duck and a fish off the top of my head. This piece is very similar both in material and construction.
Why would you think it wasn't by him?
I think the market will decide.
-
I agree looks to be the same hand, the attributions to Boffo have always required a small leap of faith for me (I may well have missed some of the chain of provenance) but there is a logic to the argument - including some distinctly Whitefriars like shapes etc. Maybe when the auction is finished a new thread bringing all the various items together with an overview would be useful.
That whale is flying away, must have hidden powers. :D
John
-
I agree that this is possibly Mdina (but plenty others did similar colours) but its nothing like any Boffo I have ever seen. I have been collecting Boffo aniamls etc (and have several fish) for many years and the techniques to produce this whale are not what I would expect to see. The way the mouth, fins, tail and eyes are formed simply do not look like Boffo. To my eye this is amateurish and nothing that could have come from Boffo's skilled hand.
-
I don't think it looks amateurish at all. In fact I would rate it as a better piece than the fish which does nothing for me whatsoever.
We all have our own opinions and tastes. As I said before the market will decide.
-
Hi, I really cant see what part of this you think is Boffo, I see so much stuff trying to be attributed to Boffo nowadays. It's not really whether you rate a piece or not, its quality of Boffo work and the techniques he used to produce his pieces that counts.
When you have a frigger, (unless its a 'known' piece), you can only then look for similarities in the way its produced to try come to a conclusion to its maker. The obvious thing to my eye is the way the fins have been crudely applied and also every other fish I have seen Boffo crimped the fins. Also Boffo always held the fish on the rod between the fins, which leaves some sort of scar or grind mark and I see no sign of this either. On no other fish does Boffo have a pushed in eye, he always used a bit of pipe either pushed straight into the glass or applied a blob and pushed the pipe into that.
As you say we are all entitled to are opinions and mine as collector of Boffo (and all evidence I can see), I have to say, that this is very unlikely to be right.
Of course there will be some that disagree and if that is the case please tell what part of this is Boffo-like so I can learn something new :)
-
Who else was given license to produce animals at Mdina at the time this made?
Whales don't have fancy fins. Whales have different eyes. I don't think you can base the construction of everything he made on the few items that you have decided have been made by him.
-
Anyone working there could make bits in their lunch break etc.
I'm just basing my observations on what is known about Boffo and the techniques he used, none of which can be seen here. I think there is a very good chance this was made at Mdina but when and by who is another matter and certainly does not fall into the 100% Boffo category as stated.
-
Not looking at the modelling, (which isn't anything I know about), it is the way the colours are used that make me suspect Boffo. In the early days at Mdina, it would only have been one of the Boffos or M. Harris who was able to get the colours all so swirly and cloudy and looking as good as that.
I would have though too, that perhaps it might have been two makers working on it? Both Boffos or one and somebody else? That might account for the internal colouring and the external modelling being by different hands?
I collect the glassware from MDG, very often the colouring and design are beautifully executed, but Boffo must have been wotrking on it with an apprentice, because the form of the thing can be very lumpy, and have really wonky thick rims, yet the colourway is simply stunning.
There are also pieces which can easily be attributed to Boffo on the grounds of having delicate fine rim flanges as well as glorious colouring.
At MDG, Vicente Boffo was supposed to be training up a load of apprentices from scratch.
-
Hi Sue, I greatly respect you and your views and like yourself I have a great passion for Boffo.
I think saying that this Boffo because of its colour is a bit tenuous and they would have had 'boys' working there, Joseph Said would have fallen into that class. Boffo and Michael would have been showing others how gather the glass for sure.
My concern here is that without my thoughts on this all of a sudden we have an example of a Mdina Whale which could be referred to in the future as Boffo.
A large 9" piece like this if made by Boffo would have some of his traits about it and this has none. For the good of Boffo research there has to be doubt about this piece IMHO.
-
Frankly, I reckon your opinion is of considerably more value than mine on this, Wolfie! :)
Looking at Said's later work though, he doesn't achieve this sort of delicacy in the colouring, I can't imagine he was able to be this skillful even earlier on.
BUT, I know nothing about animals or fishies. My big Boffo interest is the green MDG glassware. (or unusual colour combinations, such as blue cased Earthtones or green and blue "Ming").
If it was made at Mdina, could it be Ettore's work rather than Vicente's, Wolfie?
Do you know if their work can be distinguished from each other's?
-
Firstly it's not a fish it's a whale/dolphin they don't have scales they have skin and don't therefore have big flouncy frilly fins the eyes and the blowhole have been made with a pipe.
If I was a Murano master wanting to teach 'boys' in their lunch break out make an animal I too would probably have a 'classic' Murano figure. I think the scar would have been polished and flattened to copy that style and of course give the impression it was leaping out of the water.
Not good enough to have been made by 'Bofffo' I have put a photo of another 'known' fish with similar colouring that is not exactly the finest executed piece I have ever seen either also a fairly well executed Bofffo penguin he made at W/f opposed to another lighting amber he 'allegedly' made at W/f too? along side 2 other equally poor examples from MDG which quite frankly I could have made in my lunch break?
So based on that theory one could easily argue they the W/f with the lovely long well executed beak and wings surely could not have been made by the same hand as those other 3
-
Also similar to Murano whales in the same way that the fish is similar to Murano fishes.
Not surprising considering where the Boffos learnt their craft.
I think most people are happy that this piece was most likely created with the involvement of Boffo.
-
I am with Nemmie on this one.
The consensus is that this IS a Boffo Whale, a beautifully executed piece and an exciting find.
-
And I am with Nemmie and Rosie on this - at first I thought not Boffo because of the lack of frilly crimped fins, but then when I realised it is a WHALE, of course I looked again. Sorry I doubted you at first Chris. Forgiven?
It looks beautiful and very Whale like. And the colours are stunning. Certainly Boffo was diverse in his glass making as we have seen from the various very different shapes of his glass Penguins. The Penguin made whilst he was at Whitefriars is very Penguin like, but the small ones made elsewhere are almost cartoon like in my opinion.
Friggers or one offs are always subject to heated discussions, and as many have done on Whitefriars.com, much of the time it has been down to "instinct".
-
[Mod: As now noted in the original post for this thread, there has been merging of comments from another thread, following editing and deletion of various posts in that other thread.
If anyone wishes to add further thoughts or perhaps to reinstate something that has been edited out, please do so. However, please keep all comments and images relevant to the discussion of the item without adding views relating to any other person.]