Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: vidrioguapo on September 09, 2014, 01:02:25 PM
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This fish is 8.25 inches long and has a pontil mark on the underside ( see photos) I hope someone can recognise it. Thanks in advance.
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Wedgwood possibly - certainly one of their colours (darker than topaz) - and would originally have had a label. Not all of their animals were backstamped, unfortunately.
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Wedgwood and likely a second or from the shop
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Do you suggest it is a second because of the Pontil mark Christine? Or something else?
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No idea. It could be that the pontil mark is too deep, but firsts are usually marked
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OK thanks, both of you.
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According to Susan Tobin these things are dolphins, so a mammal and not a fish ;) - but Tobin's listing of these 'animals' lacks sizes and dates, and doesn't make it very clear which book description tallies with which model, although I would have assumed that the posture of this one suggested it was leaping, but perhaps not. I have three examples and they all look to have the leaping shape.
Like most of Wedgwood's animals, these come in several sizes and colours ..........Code SG 417 is simply called 'Dolphin' and was made in assorted colours ... Code SG 442 is described as 'Leaping Dolphin', and according to the book was supplied in lead crystal only.
Then again there was Code L5002 - the L standing presumably for the Lilliput range (the smallest size in the various ranges).
I still don't think this one is Topaz - to me it looks too dark when compared to known Topaz pieces int the book, but the book doesn't appear to list a brown dolphin.
I'd have thought at 8.25" this one was the largest, but only guessing, and most animals appear to have been made in a variety of sizes, with the smallest being called Lilliput.
To substantiate Christine's comments about seconds, the following is a comment from Susan Tobin's book:
""Friggers were never sold by the company, but seconds were available from the factory shops and through retail outlets particularly during the end of season sales. More than a decade after they were produced, seconds still packed in and probably never removed from their original boxes give clear evidence of the use of the label only"".
I have only one dolphin with a backstamp - applied by sand etching/blasting and not by acid - and this is simply WEDGWOOD over ENGLAND forming an oval shape.
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I'm quite certain this is a Wedgwood Dolphin, the pontil mark is normal, and often has the oval Wedgwood England mark within it, and Pauls observations from Susan Tobin's book tally well.
There is a topaz and an amber colour, but it is late and I cannot for the life of me remember which was slightly darker, I think it was Amber that was the slightly lighter of the two I will try to get my head around it for you tomorrow....oh, it is tomorrow! Well, later on then. :)
PS, I don't think yours is a second Emmi.
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on the face of it topaz is a far more delicate pale shade of ginger-brown, and there are examples of topaz dolphins in Tobin's book Rosie - and they look lighter in colour than this one.
There are also animals with a decidedly more brownish look, so presumably they are amber - not a colour that crossed over to the stem ware or commemorative sections (I don't think), so presumably seen in animals only.
If you look at the various animals the colouring appears to be variable with these two shades, but I don't see this one as topaz. :)
What in particular makes you suggest this one isn't a second Rosie?
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Thanks Paul for your very detailed comments and also to you Rosie. My eyesight is not too bad, but I am not really familiar with the subtle differences of the Wedgwood colours ( as I am with Whitefriars), so cannot be certain what it is. It is not Amber as I know it from my Whitefriars collecting, but much deeper. However, no hint of what I would call brown. And if anything, more the brownish/rusty coloured Amber associated with the Webb colourings, if that makes sense?
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Maybe a better photo?
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in the attached picture it's easy to think we are seeing the bird as being a different colour compared to the decanter - the latter being definitely topaz.
But.... the real answer may well be more simple insofar as our perception of the colour depends solely on the thickness of the glass - the thinner it is then the more pale will appear the colour, and vice versa - assuming of course that we start with the same colour. If a colour is distributed uniformly throughout the thickness of glass then obviously it's going to appear darker as thickness increases.
So - these amber/brownish colour/shades etc. may all simply be variations of topaz. :)
Edited to add...... sorry, to be candid do not consider the second 'fish' to be an improvement - why the fussy background - looks better with simply a plain white contrast. ;) ;)
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I have spent some time today looking at several pieces of my own Wedgwood glass in what I have always referred to as Amber, mainly because I can see no discernible difference apart from, as you say Paul, the thickness of the glass itself. I have seen a much lighter honey tone (it was a Labrador type dog) in Wedgwood glass, that I have always assumed was the Topaz that is often referred to in descriptions, but now on looking at Thistleblower's site where there are a number of pieces in this Amber/Topaz colour way, I note that they refer to this colour as Topaz, and there is only one piece they call Amber, it is a seal, and in the picture it looks to be no different to the Topaz!
So at the moment, the jury is out as to the correct name for the colour, but I have written to ask if there is a difference and will come back with any answer I get.
As to the conclusion that Emmis Dolphin is not a second, this is because I can see no reason for it to be classified as such. It looks perfect, and the absence of a Wedgwood England sand blasted name on the pontil mark is not unusual. Many Wedgwood pieces had both the mark and a label, others were just labelled and these very often were removed either purposefully or accidentally by fastidious owners, who may have felt that the label spoiled the look of what, after all, was bought as a display ornament in the first instance. It is only now that we. as collector.s covet a label as proof of identity....although that is not always the case, but that is a different tack that we have all discussed before.
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Whilst still in Wedgwood mode, it has occurred to me that we are assuming there were never any variations in colour batches of glass, and this may be the case and therefor a simple explanation of the variation in colour, other than the sheer thickness of the glass itself.
What is intriguing me is, did Wedgwood name two different shades of this Honey brown colour , one as Topaz and the other as Amber, or is there just one definitive name Topaz, and the other, Amber, become an urban myth and is not a Wedgwood named colour at all??? I want to know myself, as I collect Wedgwood animals.
On with the search for the truth! :)
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I think they are two different ambers, Topaz has a slight 'pinkish' sort of tone. I believe the hippo is amber and the 'stick topaz.
John
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I have heard back from Joanne at Thistleblower... she is away at the moment and will double check when she returns, but is of the same opinion as you Paul, that it is Topaz and the thickness of the glass defines the effect.
There is a pink speckled amber colour in Wedgwood glass, (I have a cat in that colour way) and the speckles are very very subtle, unlike most of the other speckled glass in Wedgwood. It gives a pinkish hue to the amber/topaz colour and is in fact very pretty and suits the cat well.
I have a plain topaz coloured one as well, so when I get a moment I will photograph them together so the difference can be seen.
I have a wonderful new Lightbox gifted to me by Dirk so as soon as I have figured out the best light to use I will use these two cats to photograph them. Incidentally neither of them are marked, but appear in Susan Tobin's book. Quite different from the usual cat we associate with Wedgwood.
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thanks Rosie - looking again in Susan Tobins book at the appendix covering animals, the lady makes no mention anywhere of 'amber', but she does use the word 'brown' - but I've no idea whether she is implying an opaque colour, or something translucent like topaz.
I always think the parrot looks very impressive - although not seen one in the flesh so to speak, perhaps it's rare.
I only pick up the animals if they're cheap at boot sales - I expect they'll all go out to a charity shop some day - but I do seriously collect the early RSW vases and the commemorative goblets are attractive. Both of his books are worth having - a lot of 1950's Scandi material and European cut and engraved pieces.
Please Dirk, may I have a light box too ;D (only joking)
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Well when you are selling your animals Paul, Auntie Rosie is always interested if it is one she hasn't got! You can always give the money to charity if you would have given them to one of their shops in the first place. I am always telling them what the pieces they are selling are.... helps them make a little more.
I think the name amber is an eBay myth, like WedgEwood!!
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I think the definitions of "topaz" and "amber" are clearly made within online dictionaries and wiki references.
NOT :)
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Could be wrong, but my interpretation of Rosie's comments, Kevin, about myth's seemed to be in the context of Wedgwood only - and according to Susan Tobin's book, this factory did not use the colour amber - although well aware that many other makers did.
Amber in particular must be one of the most all encompassing words when applied to colour, and you'd probably get as many different interpretations as there are GMB members - and if you think that's confusing you should look at the OED's entry for topaz ;D
Of course Rosie might now tell me she wasn't speaking specifically of Wedgwood. ;)
Sorry to hear that you aren't smiling :) ;)
I guess it's time to revise Emmi's subject heading and send to British glass?
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I am glad this has been moved to British Glass as it is definitely Wedgwood, and yes Paul I was speaking specifically about Wedgwood Glass. The Wiki and dictionary definitions are not appropriate for this topic, only for colour definition in general.
I have now thoroughly digested the animal section of Susan Tobin's book Emmi and am pleased to agree with Paul that the colour of your Dolphin is the 'Official Wedgwood' colour Topaz.
As you say Paul, they do not make any pieces with the colour name 'Amber' and therefore we must conclude that this is just the general public's name for this golden/honey/brown colour.
They were not always 'signed' but sometimes just given the gold oval label, so lack of Sand Blasted Wedgwood England does not necessarily denote a second, and from the pictures, I can see no reason to assume it is a second. It is symmetrical and in proportion and has a normal pontil scar on the base.
I hope that clarifies the maker and official Wedgwood colour name for your dolphin Emmi? :)
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It would be interesting to see the dolphin next to say a topaz candlestick Emmi as the colours in my experience are different. That is, the hues vary (of what I think are two variations of amber). The thickness of a given bit of glass will affect how our eye perceives the shade or tint of the colour but it will not change the hue.
Earlier I used the expression 'pinkish tone', more correctly that would have been pinkish hue.
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The thickness of a given bit of glass will affect how our eye perceives the shade or tint of the colour but it will not change the hue.
I quite agree John. Sorry I don't have anything else by Wedgwood to do a comparison photo. If I do get a candlestick I will post a pic. Thanks for your input.
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As we collectors know only too well, too many things can influence how we see colour/shade/hue/tints - and I don't even really know what the difference is between some of these words, but those influences are sufficient to make impossible and rather pointless to argue about images on the screen :).
You can call this dolphin whatever colour you wish, but it does have that something that makes me think immediately of Wedgwood - and am sure that if you said to someone 'you know those topaz/amber dolphins from Wedgwood', they'd know fairly quickly what it was you were describing, whether you used the correct colour word or not.
Was the process of colouring mixing at Wedgwood an exact science - I wouldn't have thought so - a very small difference in the batch might just make the difference for people to disagree on the outcome.
Speaking of this particular colour/shade/tint/hue, I have an early decanter that is almost colourless in places, and then again some animals show the most dense effect of all - and as we've seen here opinions are varied on what to call the resulting effect. Just looked at my candleholders in topaz, and they don't appear quite as dense as the animals, but probably more dense than most other articles.
I wish Wedgwood had used amber - would have made life easy for us, but the nearest the book gets is topaz.
I can show the above items if of interest, but get the feeling it's too easy to get bogged down with trivia instead of enjoy our glass collecting. ;D
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A sagacious reply Paul.... can't say fairer than that! :)
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The Sheringhams here are interesting - the two ambers again: http://www.ronaldstennettwillson.com/Candlesticks_Sheringham.html
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The introduction to this Candlestick group does say:
'The colours can be quite variable and different shades can often be seen by comparisons.' So it would seem that any colour that is a honey/ amber/ topaz type colour, is in fact only catalogued as Topaz.
And on the Sandringham candle holder description, there is a mention of:
'and again some variation within the main colours, probably due to the colourings being hand mixed.'
The main colours being topaz, green, blue, clear and amethyst.