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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Bernard C on November 05, 2014, 02:36:26 PM

Title: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Bernard C on November 05, 2014, 02:36:26 PM

(http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/albums/userpics/10318/DSCF1992.jpg) (http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-20713)

Click image for GlassGallery entry with click image to enlarge feature.

My first ever Sowerby Green Malachite, and, just like London buses, three arrive together!  They aren't at all common, hence my posting them here for anyone who has not seen Green Malachite before.

Details:

Top: length exactly 4½" (11.4cm), Pat. No. 1231, T.M. on base, circa mid 1877.   Near the bottom of Cottle p.99 you will see a reference to "1231".   This appears to be an error, so I have pencilled "1230?" next to it.   If you have access to a 1230 (similar style hexagonal vase), please would you check my suggested correction and report back.

Left: Pat. No. 1297 Closed, T.M. and Regn Lozenge on base, Rd. 20 March 1878.

Right: Pat. No. 1315, T.M. and Regn Lozenge inside, Rd. 20 February 1878.   Cottle p.100 has these February 1878 registrations incorrectly listed as "January", so a pencilled correction is in order.   They are correctly shown in Thompson.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 05:44:28 PM

Cottle's error in ascribing the Sowerby registrations of 20 February 1878 to 20 January 1878 has already been noted at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,50875.msg288127.html#msg288127.

I will check my reference photos of Sowerby patterns 1230 and 1231 this evening and post my findings a.s.a.p.

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Bernard C on November 05, 2014, 06:04:31 PM

Fred — Sorry about that.   I hadn't seen your topic before.   But you must agree that it's better to say it twice than not at all!

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 07:23:30 PM

I attach photos of Sowerby pattern 1230:

The image from page 3 of pattern book IX (1882).

Examples of pattern 1230 in blue malachite and purple malachite. Both of these examples have the Sowerby peacock head trademark, but neither has a registry date lozenge (and I have always presumed that the design was unregistered, until such time as I see an example marked with a lozenge).

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 07:27:21 PM

Bernard, your rectangular trough at the top of your pictures is definitely Sowerby pattern 1231, shown as such on page 3 of Sowerby pattern book IX (1882).

I attach photos of examples in green, blue and purple malachite for comparison.

(Permission for the re-use of the image of the purple malachite example on the GMB granted by jonglos).

Each of these pieces is marked with the Sowerby peacock head trademark and the registry date lozenge for 31 May 1877 (which corresponds to a bundle of three Sowerby design registrations – 310595, 310596 and 310597).

RD 310597 is Sowerby pattern number 1217 (the ‘parrot’ vase’), so Sowerby pattern 1231 corresponds to RD 310595 or 310596. Cottle correlates RD 310595 with Sowerby pattern 1224, and RD 310596 with Sowerby pattern 1231. Thompson does not give a precise correlation between the RD numbers and Sowerby pattern numbers.

I haven’t seen the design representations for RDs 310595 and 310596, and had assumed that Cottle’s correlation was correct until now. Perhaps if Paul S. sees this post, he may be able to confirm the correct RD for each pattern number by reference to the design representations from TNA at Kew.

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 07:31:27 PM

Sowerby pattern 1224 is a triangular spill vase, and appears on page 3 of Sowerby book IX (1882).

A blue malachite example is marked with the Sowerby peacock head trademark and the registry date lozenge for 31 May 1877 (as expected).

(Permission for the re-use of this image on the GMB granted by ercsdad).

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 07:36:47 PM

Sowerby pattern 1297 is shown on page 5 of pattern book IX (1882). The pattern number is the same whether the handles are open or pinched closed. The design is from Sowerby RD 319588 (registered on 20 March 1878).

Here are photos of an ‘open’ basket in blue-green malachite and a ‘closed’ basket in purple malachite. Both the example have the Sowerby peacock head trademark and the appropriate registry date lozenge.

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 07:40:33 PM

Sowerby pattern 1315 is shown on page 6 of pattern book IX (1882).

I haven’t seen a green malachite example before (but come to that I haven’t seen one in any malachite colour before).

I attach photos of a pale blue-green opalescent example (which is only marked with a peacock head trademark), a clear example with TM and lozenge for 20 February 1878, and an ivory  or off-white example (vitro-porcelain, I think, rather than IQW) also with TM and lozenge.

The Sowerby design registration bundle for 20 February 1878 covers 7 designs, RDs 310789-310795. Cottle correlates RD 318792 with Sowerby pattern 1291 (the inkstand which appears on page 5 of pattern book IX (1882),  but I have not so far been able to ascertain which one of the remaining 6 RDs from the bundle correlates with Sowerby pattern 1315.

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Paul S. on November 05, 2014, 08:24:08 PM

very nice pieces Bernard, and thanks for sharing.

Doubtless Fred has covered everything I was about to suggest........but am going to let most of my waffle stand as some may be of use.

As we all know, this type of manufactured swirled mixture of colours comes in a variety of shades, and they have been described variously over the years as malachite, marbled Vitro-Porcelain, slag, end-of-day, blackberries and cream glass.
Bernard's pieces can legitimately be called malachite, since they resemble quite closely the appearance of the mineral, although I don't think the others have a counterpart in the natural world, and it's probable that very few are genuine slag glass.
Just as a personal comment only I prefer the term marbled, if for no other reason than it's only the green form that looks like real malachite, and they seem to come in a variety of shades.
Most of the standard authors seem to use more than one description, which is at times confusing.

I thought it was 'bothery men' - I wonder if Wendy Cope knew of marbled glass. ;)

Fred is the expert on these Sowerby pieces, but whilst waiting for his answer trust he won't mind a few comments from me.

1........ you are suggesting that your top item should possibly be correctly pattern 1230  -  and yet looking at reproductions of actual Sowerby catalogue pages, this design appears to be labelled as 1231, and this description is shown on separately unrelated pages from the factory, so would not appear to be a typo by Simon Cottle.
I will post a picture of the Kew image if and when I can find it.
It's possible that Sowerby patterns 1223, 1224, and 1231 are related to a single Registration  -  they all have idential design features - although different in outline shape?

2..........your bottom left basket matches Kew drawing for Rd. 319588.

3..........the helmet shaped (unlidded piece) is possibly Rd. 318789.     In the Kew Archives of Sowerby drawings for this date, this Rd. appears very similar to your item  -  but is shown with a lid, and there is another similar lidded design, but without foot, listed as Rd. 318791.          Simon Cottle lists these as a sugar and butter respectively.

Assume you can read the details of your lozenges, so you will know these details already.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Paul S. on November 05, 2014, 08:38:48 PM

coming back to the first of Bernard's items  -  can say that in the Kew archives neither of the images for Rd. 310595 or 310596 bear any obvious similarity to this open topped four posted box, so a little confused, and will need to spend some time on this one.      Am still of the opinion that there's possibility that patterns 1223, 1224 and 1231 are related  -  they just look too similar.
Certainly the Kew image of 310597 is the parrot on the spill vase thingy.

Tomorrow I post Kew pix of 310595/6, and you'll see what I mean.   

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 09:16:19 PM

Thank you, Paul.

I await the design representations for RDs 310595/6 with interest.

I must commend Simon Cottle for his pioneering work in correlating so many of the Sowerby pattern numbers and RD numbers - it truly was a mammoth task, and the errors that are surfacing now are few in relation to his total effort.  Thanks to the GMB and its members, hopefully the task of correlating the remainder should be almost completed within the next century or so!

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Paul S. on November 06, 2014, 09:23:20 AM

attached are the National Archive Representations for Rd. Nos. 310595 and 310596  -  presumably I'm wrong, but regret I don't see any real connection with either of these and factory pattern 1231. :-\

Assume this thread will be moved to British...

If there are others you might need Fred, I shall be back at the screen later this afternoon some time.   

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 06, 2014, 01:05:27 PM

Thank you for the pix, Paul.

RD 310595 corresponds closely with the Sowerby pattern 1221 covered butter shown on page 6 of pattern book XI (1885).

RD 310596 corresponds closely with the Sowerby pattern 1221 covered sugar shown on page 48 of pattern book XI (1885). The is also an Sowerby pattern 1221 uncovered sugar shown on page 59 of pattern book XI (1885).

I attach a photo of the Sowerby pattern 1221 open sugar (plus matching creamer) for comparison, both pieces bearing the ‘correct’ lozenge for 31 May 1877 – Parcel 9.

I notice that Jenny Thompson (page 30) describes the RD 310595/6 designs as for ‘Angular bar shaped handles’, and these intersecting bars to me seems the most likely (though fairly feeble) connection between patterns 1221, and 1231 or 1224.

Fred

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 06, 2014, 01:38:17 PM

I notice that the Thistlewood CD-ROM Sowerby catalogue Vol. 3 (section ‘Sowerby Glass in Pictures – Index Page 2; enlarged thumbnail of pattern 1224) says that

Quote

“Interestingly, this item has the same pattern number, 1124, as ‘Cross Patch’ shown next.”

and that

Quote

“… this vase is the same design as number 1225, except that 1225 is square shaped. It seems likely that there was a small error in Pattern Book IX, and this item should [also?] have been numbered 1225”

Sowerby pattern 1225 is really just an ‘upright’ version of Sowerby pattern 1231.

For reference, I attach photos of examples in pattern 1225 in purple malachite (unmarked), blue malachite (TM but no RD), and blue-green malachite (also TM but no RD), so I assume that pattern 1225 was from an unregistered design until I see an example with a lozenge.

Fred

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Paul S. on November 06, 2014, 01:56:48 PM

I'd also thought of that idea as a possible connection, but seems to be stretching the imagination too much.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Bernard C on November 07, 2014, 06:25:51 AM

Quote from: agincourt17 on November 05, 2014, 07:23:30 PM

...   Examples of pattern 1230 in blue malachite and purple malachite. Both of these examples have the Sowerby peacock head trademark, but neither has a registry date lozenge (and I have always presumed that the design was unregistered, until such time as I see an example marked with a lozenge).   ...

Fred — Exactly.   Precisely the same here, but not for 1230, but for 1231.   Please forgive me for plagiarising your words.

I have seen two examples of pattern 1231, in a colour I can't remember some years ago (when I put a "?" against the 1231 registration in Cottle) and Green Malachite (shown above).   Both of these examples had the Sowerby peacock head trademark, but neither had a registry date lozenge (and I have always presumed that the design was unregistered, until such time as I see an example marked with a lozenge).

You have now shown us three examples with both the T.M. and Regn Lozenge.   So I have erased my pencilled note mentioned at the start of this topic and replaced it with a note that it exists in the two versions.

Thanks.

Finally where is the lonely trademark on the opalescent 1315?    Inside or on the base?

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Bernard C on November 07, 2014, 07:47:44 AM

Quote from: Paul S. on November 05, 2014, 08:24:08 PM

...   Bernard's pieces can legitimately be called malachite   ...

Paul — You're misquoting me.   I used the term Malachite, not malachite, as that is the term Sowerby used, and is how it was shown on the front cover of Pattern Book IX.

Quote from: Paul S. on November 05, 2014, 08:24:08 PM

...   Fred is the expert on these Sowerby pieces   ...

No he isn't.   Fred is an authority, but there are quite a few others in Britain and overseas.

Bernard C.  8)

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: Paul S. on November 07, 2014, 08:59:26 AM

and good morning to you too, Bernard. :)

Plenty of your usual pendantic criticism, but not a word of appreciation for the Naional Archive material supplied to help with your request for assistance on these Sowerby pieces.

This lack of acknowledgment indicates there is no longer any need for me to supply these details to the Board.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: agincourt17 on November 07, 2014, 09:16:38 AM

Bernard, the ‘lonely trademark on the opalescent 1315’ is on the side of the interior of the ‘bowl’, and I attach a photo in confirmation.

Might I say that I have never purported to be any sort of authority or expert on Sowerby glass (or any other kind of glass for that matter). I am merely an amateur researcher into many aspects of glass design (mainly British Victorian moulded glass designs, especially those from registered designs, and glass trinket sets), and am a seeker after knowledge and truth, not accolades. I think it was Isaac Newton who said “If I have seen further it is by standing on ye sholders of giants”, and I pay due obeisance to those who truly are ‘giants’ in my various fields of interest.

I use the GMB as a resource to further my own research and am incredibly grateful for the input of other participants in those discussions (and try to express my gratitude as appropriate).

During the course of my research I have built up a large photo reference database as a useful primary source of information. Many of the photographs are of pieces that are rare, uncommon, or unusual. Some of photographs are of pieces that seem never to have been to have been in the public domain before. On occasion, I submit information to other members to [hopefully] assist them in their queries or research and hope that participants in the various discussions may gain some benefit.

Fred.

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: flying free on November 08, 2014, 06:19:21 PM

Paul, I can see you point entirely. Whilst I never post on these threads, I do read them and love all the detail and sourced/resourced information that you and Fred supply on each item.  I think it is an absolutely amazing resource. 

I also really value the fact that you take the time to go and research these items at the archives.  No one else would do that.  Please don't stop posting - your help is genuinely hugely appreciated and I am sure that is by many more than just me.

m

Title: Re: Sowerby Green Malachite and minor errors in Cottle
Post by: pamela on November 09, 2014, 01:11:52 AM

Lacking the right English words I had to hope for any such comment from other members - thank you, M.!  :-*

Paul, please do not cease to contribute your valuable thoughts and results of your investigations - thank you!  :-*