Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: bOBA on December 14, 2014, 06:22:35 PM
-
Hi all,
I recently found this fascinating jug in the West Midlands. There is no registration mark, but it looks to be an 1880-1900, Stourbridge machine applied threaded piece. The decor is slightly odd as the other machine threaded pieces I have from Stourbridge can have pieces of thread removed. This piece however, the threads are tight together and almost buried in the body, so loss is nearly impossible. According to the authoritative Hadjamach BG 1800-1914, Hodgett Richardson produced a very similar threaded design, as well as designs with very raised threads. (see Images on p280). Hadjamach notes tat other companies pruduced similar threaded pieces too, making Stourbridge a possibly vague but likely general attribution only. With a finely polished pontil and an air trap handle, it is great quality. There is a tiny crack under the handle. I am unsure whether sometimes this may be present at manufacture, as I have seen quite a few. Could a jug collector comment on whther these defects are thought to be sometimes present from new or does an impact on a handle often result in a small crack under the part of the handle where it is attached? Equally I would appreciate any confirmation that it is in fact a cream jug and/or part of a possible set?
Robert (bOBA)
-
I wonder if it is actually moulded. Can you follow the thread round a spiral with your finger nail?
-
Thanks Christine, it is a spiral. This made me think it is extremely fine threading...
-
attractive piece Robert, and regret I'm unable to provide an attribution.
If you have Gulliver you'll know that Stuart, T/Webb, S. & W., H.G. Richardson and Hodgetts Richardson, all made pieces with threading, and I've just seen another maker I was unaware of - Daniel Pearce.......... all within the period you mention. Possibly there were other makers in addition to these.
Looking at a side profile of your jug, the threading appears reasonably proud - it doesn't strike me as unusually flat or sunk when compared to some of Gulliver's examples - but you're certainly lucky if this has avoided all damage. As you say, most pieces with this decoration show some loss of thread.
You don't mention size, so difficult to assess use, but this pronounced 'helmet' design to the top rim is often indicative of creamers, provided they aren't 12" tall - Gulliver plays safe, and appears to describe all such containers simply as either large or small jugs.
The hollow handle appears very unusual - despite showing a wide variety of handle designs, to the best of my knowledge all of those shown in Gulliver are solid. Regret I can't comment of the crack, other than to say that it's not that uncommon to find them where bodies meet handles, although perhaps more often on pre 1860 ish pieces with top down handles rather than your type which I'd understood provided improvement in joint strength.
You don't mention wear - just guessing, but might the absence of this indicate perhaps a later piece, or not of the period you mention?
Sorry none of this helps. :)
-
Beautiful piece and a nice find: isn't a creamer is a small jug by definition? I would also think it is part of a set, so start looking for sugar basin and even side plates? ;)
The photos also show a great moiré effect!
-
so you get two effects for the price of one then ;)
Robert's pix are extremely good - producing quality images of clear glass is never easy.
a creamer is indeed a small jug, and Silber & Fleming describe small ones as cream jugs. It seems that when the capacity is about one pint or more (slightly over half a litre I think) they did call them water jugs, but not always. I was just a little surprised that Gulliver doesn't call the smaller ones cream jugs, which is possibly the only use they had.
I'm more puzzled by the hollow handle than anything else.
-
I suppose milk jugs could be slightly larger, but not more than ˝-pt? Another definition is a lemonade jug - supposedly distinct from a water jug (but probably not).
-
There are, of course, the tiny jugs used for watering your whisky http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1470
The Winnipeg one has rye stalks on the back
-
the other feature of this piece that I thought was unusual - but could just be me being dim - was where the threading continues to the very peak of the lip. Threading, I thought, usually encircles the whole of an object, not something that is only half there as with much of this pouring lip.
Threading is added to a piece, I'd assumed, after the shape has been formed, so adding threading to a piece with a lip of this profile must present other difficulties, especially if produced on a machine. :-\
Would be interesting to hear if someone knows for how long machine threading continued into the C20.
I did think of water jugs for whiskey, but no idea how this was done in the C19 - maybe ceramic jugs were used for that purpose instead of glass.
-
Mine, as shown, are glass
-
yes, assumed so - presumably not a lot unlike the Krys-Tol/Jefferson u. custard glass, although perhaps that was more yellow - yours look paler, so perhaps less u.
I don't see in any of the books specific reference to these small creamers doubling up as water jugs for whiskey - maybe just one of those unintended uses when it was found that they were either cheaper or more readily available.
-
That is an interesting thought - how was the threading done right to the lip? I assume it was threaded to a flat, horizontal rim and the shape of the rim formed afterwards. Can you provide a close-up of the rim, Robert?
-
Thanks everyone. I initially thought it was possibly ribbed but it is definitely spiralled. Thanks for the comment on the "moire" effect David, very true. I cannot easily photograph the rim immediately but the raised threading seems near completely melted in near the rim. The jug is about 12cm maximum height. A fair bit of wear, weight and finish make me think Stourbridge. The photo of the vase with applied foot, similar to the jug, I mentioned earlier, as shown in the book by Charles Hadjamach seems to show similar tighter threading than shown on the other pieces in the same image, which are more conventionally threaded. The threading on that piece does not reach the rim though.... Perhaps this jug is a ribbed piece but it seemed plausible it could be a later development of machined threading. As different factories experimented, results could have varied. I appreciate the discussion of cream, creamer and whisky water jugs too..... Any photos or links to pieces with similar decor would be welcome,
Robert (bOBA)
-
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH1591a/ This is a link to a similar looking, tightly threaded set from Hodgett-Richardson, as pictured in the book as discussed. The image may be enlarged.
Robert (bOBA)
-
I think threading got quite sophisticated. I have quite a few threaded pieces, mostly tightly threaded and some more tughtly "stuck" than others. I hope this search link (http://www.lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/thumbnails.php?search=threaded&submit=search&album=search&title=on&newer_than=&caption=on&older_than=&keywords=on&type=AND) works
-
Great link Christine. The pieces you have labelled possible Richardson possible pieces are the most similar threading to my piece actually. As you suggest the application of threading varied widely. An under plate I have has threading damage and you could nearly pick it off with a fingernail. The piece in this thread by contrast, has threading bonded to the main body so tightly, it could never come off. The sides of the jusg even has tiny scratches suggesting somebody tried to use it erroneously as a matchstriker... still no damage to the threading... I will try to posy a picture of the underplate with delicate type threading....
Robert (bOBA)