Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: misha on January 06, 2015, 03:09:10 AM
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I'm assuming this is a Victorian era water decanter - water set. Should have a matching glass sitting inverted on top?
I have some kinda matching small etched glasses that may work with this.
I like the engraving on this little piece. The flowers are very finely executed, each panel different to next and very well balanced, as are the round cut spots around base. Only weak engraving would be the square zigzag below flowers... The similar theme acid etch [I assume] engraving on glasses is far more intricate.
Acid etch frosting is very consistent across the whole piece.
I found this a difficult piece to photograph. Empty of fluid the view of side and rear etchings distracts, so diluted soy sauce went in.... Port wine was just too dark for the etching to look good... clear water no help at all... No chance of getting paper inside or being able to remove it after!
So... Is this flint glass due to style era? Approx date range?
Any ideas on who would have made these?
How were the glass form made? I can't see any mould seam marks at all.
Is that indeed well executed engraving by standards of that era?
And... are these of any $ value.
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I think you are right about about Victorian because of the ferns but think it's missing a stopper not a glass. For it to have a glass over, I would expect a straight neck and no foot. You don't give the size but it looks more like an individual decanter. It would have been mould blown by hand and I wouldn't expect seams to show
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I had fun in the sun today, NOT!
Learn camera again while sleep deprived, me living in some other time zone.
Deep black velvet is on shop list now.
So, brain baked, but glass images that I think works with it.
210mm H x 70mm Dia. foot/shoulder x 45mm Dia. rim x 14mm Dia. throat bore.
70mm H from shoulder to rim.
Fluid capacity: ~ 275ml.
Mass: 235g
Yes, now I look carefully through etch frosting of throat and see a taper reamer has been there grinding for a taper stopper. :-\
Next question is what style of stopper was there?
Anyhow, glass [I have 2] fits like so, interesting etch work on this... acid?
Looks too fine to be tool cut and lines are random spaced, not consistent machine divided pattern.
Does this pattern on the drinking glass define a design [date] era?
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The glasses could be Victorian through to Edwardian. That's a machine etch, aka a needle etch or a plate etch.
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Needle etch.
So that is a scratched into the glass to mark pattern, or a pitch mask is scratched and then acid etched?
I would have thought scratching would have a lot of cracking happening during production, inducing cracking or making it easy to scratch/tap/crack as you do cutting sheet. Cracking in customers homes... an early example of 'planned redundancy'? :D
What's your thoughts on the type of glass [decanter and drinker] Christine?
The glass appears to be of high clarity at thickest places, looking across base of drinking glass and into edges of the decanter.
Might be clear but I can't say refractive quality is like leaded glass though.
Needs water in decanter to throw any spectral colour and low at that. Then again, no angular design to act like a prism in it.
I understand 'flint' was an early form of glass that had lead additive, done so for refraction and ease of cutting/engraving.
But could this be correctly termed 'flint' due to age, or would it be more a matter of who made it?
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Machine etching with acid was done in huge quantities, so it must have been a pretty effective process. There's lots of information if you google.
Flint glass is either lead glass or term for colourless glass. I doubt anyone can tell without handling it
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A very simplistic explaination is as follows: Machine/Needle Etching was done with acid after the piece was first coated with an acid resistant wax then a design was created by a needle cutting through the wax to form a pattern by removing a specific area of wax from the desired area followed by the piece being submerged in acid. The piece was then removed from the acid bath, & cleaned with the remainder of wax removed leaving the design pattern intact on the piece. It was an effective cost saving method used on mass produced glass.
Whether of not your piece is flint may be difficult to determine unless handled personally. You may try a simple tapping with your finger on the piece if you suspend it on a string to see if it rings (like a small bell) when tapped. If it does then it may contain some lead content. If it thuds (no ring) them probably not. Not scientific by any means but it works.
Attributing your piece to a specific manufacturer probably is close to impossible.
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pantograph etching came into use after 1918 so your de canter may be younger than it seems.
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Hi there Ivo.
The Needle etch example is on the small glasses. The 'square wave' pattern on decanter is wheel etched. Under Lens inspection it shows the obvious radius of the tool used tapering at ends of the line and depth in middle, as do the spots of pattern on base and neck.
I thought may have been Victorian due to how very thin the glass is [the drinkers] and inconsistency of thickness in walls and base. Mass produce or 'low end' of market may have explain that lack of 'quality' too.
Market value wasn't an issue for me, 2 drinkers only cost me a lousy AU$1 at a charity store a year ago... no big deal, bought for 'pretty' virtue as well as being 'survivors' given how light weight they are.
I take your point on the possible manufacture date of glasses though.
Seems 'classic' patterns followed for some time over the years, rather than become unfashionable.
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This confusion is why different things should be posted on different threads. What are you referring to when you say drinkers? The glasses?
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which shows to prove the lemonade glass was made between 1918 and 1930 and bears no relation to the decanter.
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Reviving this old thread - Ivo wrote:
pantograph etching came into use after 1918 so your de canter may be younger than it seems.
I am currently working with a small industrial heritage museum in Bergdala, Sweden.
We have a pantograph (from Kosta glassworks), but do not really know its history (and the Kosta archives are currently buried, waiting for organization and, hopefully, digitalization (sp?)). Anecdotal evidence dates it to the 1890-ies; one of the pattern templates are for IX Desutches Turnfest Hamburg 23 - 27 Juli 1898 (which implies the machine was in use before those dates, we think). (Can't find a way to insert pictures, but they can be found at http://bergdala-museum.blogspot.se/2016/03/ix-deutsches-turnfest-1898-igen.html (http://bergdala-museum.blogspot.se/2016/03/ix-deutsches-turnfest-1898-igen.html) *not* a good photo, unfortunately)
There is also a picture in a book (Steenberg et al: Modernt svenskt glas, 1947 ) of a glass called "restaurant glass from Kosta, 1890ies" depicting a glass for Hotel Cecil (London, UK). We have the template.
As all/most of our evidence is anecdotal, I would be very interested of sources for the history of the pantograph as a machine for mass-producing patterned glass.
Can you point me to any literature or other sources?
(Read more about our pantograph at http://bergdala-glastekniska-museum.se/eng-pantograf.html (http://bergdala-glastekniska-museum.se/eng-pantograf.html))
Kerstin in Sweden - who is also interested in the terminology of etching - "wheel etching" compared to "needle etching" compared to "guilloché"?