Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: RoyJ99 on January 27, 2015, 05:49:01 PM
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Found this lovely little wine glass today, yep in the same charity shop, and I kinda fell for it. The glass is very thin and delicate, with a number of inclusions, even more when viewed through a loupe, small bubbles and a few little black specks. Twisted stem, very thin foot and engraved design with a small applied panel of ruby glass which has been gilded with a coat of arms. There is a very small pontil scar which is difficult to see but can be felt when running your finger over it. Some signs of wear to the base of the foot and a few scratches on the upper surface of the foot. I'd guess at a European origin, possibly Bohemian but other than that I know nothing about it. Would love to hear your opinions on it.
Measurements are 9.5cm in height, 5.7cm across the foot and 5cm across the top of the bowl.
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Last pic
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You have a Zwischengold pokal but other than that I can't tell you any more about it.
Someone will be along v. shortly who will though, I'm sure.
And it's a beautiful piece of glass - just slightly envious here ;D
But it would be very helpful please to upload photographs that can actually be seen - your pictures don't enlarge unfortunately.
m
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I have never heard of one of those lol.
The pictures are enlarging fine for me, I used the image optimiser as is recommended.
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It is not Zwischengold but it is a great wine glass - really elegant.
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Could you elaborate Ivo as to what you think it is and why you think it's not Zwischengold?
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Well ok, to be precise :-[ I would say it is a goblet with a Zwischengold medallion in it (but there might be some discussion as to whether it is correct to call the medallions Zwischengold).
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52160.msg298794.html#msg298794
A Zwischengold pokal would have two layers of glass for the bowl with the decoration sandwiched between the two layers.
m
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Ok yeah where as my glass has the medallion applied to the bowl. Age wise what are peoples opinions, are we talking period?
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Could you post pictures of the reverse of the glass please and also the side of the bowl as well, showing the engraving. It's difficult to imagine what it looks like when you can only see the front.
Thanks :)
m
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Hi ,
I have always known these types of glasses as Zwischengold" Medallion " glasses, 1st half of the 18th c is most likely I would think ,the link above takes you to a large flask from the "Krug"collection which is now mine and described in that sale as a Zwischengold medallion,I also have the wine glass below .
cheers
Peter.
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Sure will get on that shortly.
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Back and side views as requested.
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There has been discussion on these before because I was querying whether a salt I have was the Zwischengold technique.
Looking through the book
Glas des Historismus, Walter Spiegl, 1980, Klinkhardt and Biermann, there is a chapter entitled
'Doppelwand- und ,,Mildner'' - Glaser pages 140-147. '
My powers of translation aren't great so I can't read it and give the gist of the whole chapter.
However it appears to call the double wall bechers 'Doppelwandbecher' and only then adds whether they have Zwischengold decoration.
For example see page 143 Abb.177. 'Doppelwandbecher mit Zwischengold und Bemalung....'
So the descriptor of the double layers is Doppelwandbecher then there is an addition of Zwischengold if it has the gold decoration. So technically these are Dopperwandbecher mit Zwischengold dekor.
The book also features black and white photos of some pieces that are not double walled but that have medallions in on pages 144,145and 146. and refers to them as having 'Einsatzmedaillons', for example Abb.179 'Becher mit zwei Einsatzmedaillons in der Art des J.J.Mildner.'
Rather than calling them Zwischengold bechers.
So in this book, those with medallions appear to be referred to as Becher with inset medallion. No mention of Zwischengold . Being pedantic, I suppose that might be because none of the medallions on any of those pieces are made in the Zwischengold technique, but two look as though they are to me.
So questions then -
I can understand that the technique of the double wall bechers is complicated and different to a medallion, however with a medallion the wall of the vessel is cut isn't it, with a hole made for the double walled medallion to be inserted? So that's still technically difficult to accomplish.
And the medallions are still decorated glass with gold leaf sandwiched between two layers of glass. So therefore technically aren't they still Zwischengold decoration? And isn't my salt as well?
The fact that the technique for sandwiching my salt picture is nowhere near as complicated as inserting a medallion in a wall of a goblet,or indeed inserting one becher inside another with sealed decoration between the two, is not relevant. Because the actual Zwischengold technique is 'sandwiched engraved gold leaf decoration between two layers of glass'.
It is not only called Zwischengold when it's 'sandwiched engraved gold leaf decoration between two walls of a double layer becher'.
Therefore the medallions and my salt are both Zwischengold... aren't they?
This is a link to my salt thread - I know... it's nowhere near as precious as these pieces but it is old and I believe it is the Zwischengold technique :)
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55531.msg314667.html#msg314667
m
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HI ,
A couple of examples,
cheers ,
Peter.
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Thank you both, think my head is going to explode lol but it is making some sense.
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Hi ,
These glasses look to have have the same "arms" as on your glass,maybe the auction house will have an idea what family it is,
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/konvolut-zehn-stengelglaser-618-c-157443b9b3
cheers ,
Peter.
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for the description of 'Zwischengoldglas' ( note.. not just the word Zwischengold)
the Corning Dictionary says ..
'(German, “gold between glass”) A type of decoration, produced in Bohemia and Austria in the 18th century, in which a design in gold or silver leaf is incorporated between two vessels that fit together precisely. Unlike Hellenistic and Roman gold glass, which is fused, Zwischengoldglas is bonded with cement.'
http://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/zwischengoldglas
but then
shows this plaque described as Goldglas Plaque (Zwischengoldglas)
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/goldglas-plaque-zwischengoldglas
Made in Venice 1875-1899 diameter 16.8cm height 2.9cm
'PRIMARY DESCRIPTION
Transparent pale green glass with very many minute and few small bubbles; free-blown with sandwiched gold-leaf decoration. Two slightly concave circular glass sheets with a slightly convex center have been fused together, the bottom sheet having a straight rim serving as a band-like ring base and a very rough large pontil mark; the letter bears the golden decoration: apparently the portrait of a couple in a medallion, a "Roman- type" woman and a "13th plus 15th century-type" man, surrounded by a band consisting of six other male and female portraits in medallions; the six busts are framed by symbols, between the medallions are quatrefoils, each of them accompanied by four dots; the edge at the joining is roughly ground.'
So I think when they use the word 'vessels' it doesn't necessarily have to mean a double walled becher.
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Thanks for that link Peter, they do indeed have the same arms, I'll send an email to them tomorrow.
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Just for the record, I can see a difference between the type of decoration on both the goblet medallion Peter posted and my salt, and the other pieces shown in the book and here (i.e. both double walled decorated pieces and the medallion items). And that is that the other pieces have flat gold leaf decoration with the picture 'scratched' into the gold leaf, whereas both the medallion on Peter's goblet and the flowers and leaves on my salt are engraved and then have the gold infill in the engraving as far as I can see.
I've attached a close up of the picture on my salt - unfortunately you still can't see the engraving lines v well (best seen in this pic in the basket and on the leaves on the left of the picture) but on the full size pic they are very visible.
m
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There seems to be some uncertainty about Zwischengold here. The word Doppelwandbecher means double walled beaker. There is no point in making such an article unless you decorate it between the layers. Two slightly conical beakers are made, one fitting tightly into the other. The inner one is covered in gold leaf and decorated by scratching. The two vessels are then fitted together and the rims are sealed with 'cement' - which is a resin or glue. The result is sandwiched gold, or Zwischengold. In typical 18th century fashion, the result is of a breathtaking quality. Usually the outside is then panel cut. The best examples I have seen are in the national Museum I n Budapest. Zwischengold glass is extremely rare and is hard to find outside museums.
It is a completely different beast than gold filled engraving.
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So unless it is a double walled becher or double walled goblet then the term Zwischengold can not be used as a descriptor of the piece?
And the auction houses are incorrect to describe the medallion pieces as e.g. 'Goblet with Zwischengold medallion'. They should just be 'Goblet with inset medallion'?
Just to have correct information though, some of the medallion pieces have gold with the design scratched into the gold as the bechers do. The ones that appear to be different to this are Peter's goblet with the flower and leaves (that is still on an inset medallion) and my salt.
m
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Having done some more investigating and rereading a conservation document I'd found previously, my salt may not fall into this category (but still undecided) however I'm going to have to disagree about the Medallion glasses.
The Corning very specifically includes single walled glasses with a medallion here in their document regarding the conservation of Zwischengold glasses (see page 15).
http://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/collections/85/8595D55B-378A-4400-91C2-B7D20E08F616.pdf
They also start this document with the following wording:
'T HE T E R M Zwischengoldglas refers to several
different types of eighteenth-century
glasses made in Austria and Bohemia.
Meaning literally "glass with gold between," it is
an apt description of both the way in which the
glasses were made and of the nature of their ornamentation.
These objects are characterized by
having been assembled from separate glass parts,
which were cemented together, and by metallic
gold and/or silver decorations sandwiched in between
the glass parts. '
I do feel my salt can be included in this.
m
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Hi ,
I think we are getting a little bogged down here , yes Ivo is quite correct the "best" Zwischengold items are double walled vessels with a scratched decoration ,btw not all are in museums , the 1 below is gold and silver , however the term Zwischengold medallion is perfectly acceptable I believe when referring to an applied glass medallion which creates a double walled section on a bowl or a circular disc inserted in the foot,as found on most Zwischengold tumblers , My barrel has the typical scratched decoration as in double walled vessels and the wine glass has gold filled engraving but is still a gold sandwich, maybe the engraved examples should like some cameo glass be referred to as pseudo Zwischengold ??,
cheers ,
Peter
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I'm not getting bogged down. But it's a discussion that has come up before and I felt needed clarifying. :)
You read my mind re the Cameo point ;D
That article makes very interesting reading - particularly about the best way to store the glasses.
I'm also very curious to know what the green pigment is in the backing to my salt. It's made in the same way as the red pigments i.e. with tiny coloured bits floating in a clear vehicle. In the case of the red it seems from their investigations that it is 'probably rose madder'. I wonder what the green is.
m
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Wow such a learning curve, really enjoying the discussion.
Just to clarify, one my glass the medallion is definitely gold leaf between two layers of ruby glass with the "Arms" scratched out. Under a loupe you can actually see a few small wrinkles in the gold leaf in places. I worked as a chef for years and used gold leaf a couple of times and remember how difficult it actually is to smooth down.
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Hi, I just now saw your question concerning the coat of arms. Maybe you already got the answer from the auction house. If not, it is that of "Kursachsen", here on another piece of glass: http://www.auctions-fischer.de/kataloge/online-kataloge/210-europaeisches-glas-studioglas.html?kategorie=99&artikel=26386&cHash=e883f63d89 . Here some information on Kursachsen: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electorate_of_Saxony .
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Uncanny timing, I have literally just sent an email to the auction house asking about the "arms". Thank you kindly for the information.