Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on February 04, 2015, 04:50:04 PM
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Hi all,I bought this glass with a lot of Victorian glass because liked it so much,the writing makes me feel it's bohemian,always been quick like that ::),it reminds me of Roy glass he posted earlier last week,but I could be wrong,any thoughts many thanks.
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And a few more
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Single red thread in stem says "Bohemian" to me. But date ... not sure?
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Can't help, but would like to say what fabby pics you've managed to take of the work on this piece! It's not easy photographing this sort of thing.
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Thanks Sue,I'm working in a flat that has just had every room white undercoated with large windows,it took a while to find the best light without the flash coming on..I won't bore you with the crude comments from my fellow tradesmen... ::) :D
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errhhm, what does the writing say please? :)
is the engraving of an arm holding flowers? is it an 'in memory' type glass?
m
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Hi m,I think we've been here before lol,offer =under, diefen? Allen=all! gaff=in Dutch gave, wie=how. viefes? gefallen=please!..so sorry I'm not sure to be honest ::)
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Sorry,I think the hand is holding a heart shaped apple,or a big strawberry or a turnip.
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umm, I'm useless at these but maybe
unter diesen aller gast wir dieses gefallen
among these we all hospitable like this ??
Or something like that...
presumably raising a toast - a sort of friendship thing maybe?
m
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While I personally prefer the turnip theory, it looks rather like the "Scared heart" symbol - a bit of a dead person with flames coming out of it, much loved by some religious groups.
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Sue I agree - and my first thought was the engraving on the top was a coffin hence my in memorium suggestion (runs and hides), sorry Bat.
m
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"The scared heart",oh gawd!!!is this something I should put outside ;)
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;D
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Michael's Mum and Dad had this portrait in their sitting room, they had a candle-like bulb flickering under it day and night. I think it's safe indoors.
http://www.catholictradition.org/Two-Hearts/devotion6.htm
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It was the scared bit that tickled me Sue - and presumably Bat as well :)
m
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first of all I wondered about it being fruit of some kind.......... but now leaning more toward laying flowers perhaps - so could be some 'in memoriam' thing with a grave or mausoleum suggestion. Don't the Catholics have something called All Souls Day - so perhaps you'd drink a toast on that day.
It's those bits coming out of the top of what appear to be apples that are confusing.
thought we had to avoid politics and religion Sue ;)
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Sausage-fingers strike again. :-[
I hadn't noticed my typo, I thought is was just the image that was creepy. It certainly creeps me out.
Not discussing religion per se, Paul, :P just imagery. ;)
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us atheists must stick together :P
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Sue,it's the parrot of doom on the lid got me worried ;)
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Looks like the hand is harvesting a plant (could be a turnip ::) ) from the plantation below . might be a harvest celebration glass ?
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Well, when I looked up close, I was starting to get worried by the ghoulish expressions on the faces of the "vegetables" on the heap towards the bottom right.
I can't find the "parrot of doom" or a lid!
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The parrot of doom is under the G peering over the lid of the coffin
ooh the ghoulish faces ... are they pumpkins?
Are we casting nasturtiums on the skills of this poor engraver?
m
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I think your right m,it's only 12cm high and I think the engraving is very skilled especially in the real,the garlands are very detailed around the flowers,I wonder how long this would have taken.
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what, the whole glass is only 12cm high?
how tall is the bowl bit then? - that's an awful lot of engraving on a 6cm high bowl :o
but the disembodied arm is still a bit :-X
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The bowl is about 7cm,I should add it's light with a small broken pontil,some bubbles in the glass and a small amount of lead in the metal,the foot rests on the very outer edge and for such a light gLass has good wear.
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'Unter diesen allen hat mir dieses gefallen' ? I guess it translates as 'out of all of them, I like this one the best...'
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Thanks Anne,so I'm guessing it's a token of love.?a kind of chat up line or perhaps engagement glass,I'm not sure you'd get away with a line like that these days,"your my favorite girl" ::)
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No, I don't think that would work today :D but it's nice of you to say so!
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I hadn't even found the coffin - I though it was a bridge.
I was thinking about this last night, I'm quite convinced the things are "Sacred hearts" and it looks as if the arm is adding one to a heap of them. It's a little bit mediaeval looking - Bosch-like sort of thing.
I had wondered if it was a memorial for some folk who had died in a plague... perhaps a whole family, but that the last one being added is the most missed, the eldest son or the most recent baby?
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Your glass is very similar to one I bought from the much respected and knowledgeable Dr Fischer auction house in Germany. It was described as German 18th century. It's 13.3 cm tall. Less decorated than yours mine has a bird on one side and flowers with foliage on the other. Both have the same form with a twisted knop and a red streak in the stem.
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The heart motif is not uncommon on German glasses. I have one which I believe is probably Hessen from 1760 with a heart next to a flower and the German "nur allein" = alone. I think it is a glass one would give to a loved one meaning "you are the only one".
I've done some digging in my books on continental glass and the ones (not very many) with the red thread are either Bohemian or Silesian from about 1730. I'm not sure if my own red threaded glass is quite that early but you never know.
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My guts feel very strongly that the style of image on the original glass is very old indeed. It seems to me to fit in with fire farting monsters, faces where bums should be and all sorts of other weird and wonderful really, really OLD mediaeval stuff.
I'm relieved to hear of a postulated 1730-ish and although that is still a bit later than the style/genre I'm thinking of, it did persevere for a while.
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I've now had a closer look at the engraving on your glass and still believe it is from about 1730-40. The way the foot is engraved is so typical of that era and the rocaille/rococo decoration is again typical of the early/mid 18th century.
I am convinced it's unlikely to be earlier than 1720 and not later than 1770 ish.
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Fire farting monsters,he he he,that made I laugh Sue..I'm going with the lourve thing,all those flowers,the love bird etc,the hand is coming out of a tree or cloud having picked several plump heart shaped apples,metaphor for young maidens he has frolicked with as you do ,and then choosing one suitable to take home to his mum and dad,more of a mans world then I would say world I would say!
Antwerp thanks for the photos,I tentatively was thinking early 18 century from other glasses I've seen on the net,but haven't seen anything with this full on engraving,is your glass very delicate ,because this one is like facon de Venice.
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My glass, which is similar in form to yours, is quite light because it is made of soda glass. Under UV light it shows yellow luminescence. The walls are not very thin - but if you are going to engrave on the bowl you can't have them too thin I'd have thought. However the walls are thinner than some of the English lead glasses I have but thicker than some the earlier French/Dutch ones I possess which are not engraved.
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Yup well that's the thing about this glass?the engraving seems quite deep in places but the glass is light and thin especially the foot,I agree it's very similar to the 1730 onward glasses,but it's just it's lightness has me a bit confused,am I right in thinking this style of engraving is after1700 and any thing before is done with a sharp point?
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Have you tested it to see if it's soda glass? If it is soda glass it will almost certainly feel very light.
Earlier glass, 17th century and early 18th century, was often straw coloured or sometimes slightly purple (manganese) and your glass is clearly not; it's a very 'white' colour.
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I can't find my torch as I have moved recently and a lot of stuff is still in boxes,it has a slight brittle ring and the foot looks a bit oily,not a straw colour for sure,I think your dates are most likely correct,I hope so anyway and that style wasn't copied later.
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Lovely glass :)
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Thanks Roy,it's funny really seeing your beautiful glass earlier in the week and then seeing this one a couple of days later ,it made me feel it could be a relation of some sort. ....And thanks Antwerp for sharing you knowledge on glass from this era and part of the world.
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Yeah they are very similar, certainly same period and from the same region I would think.
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I think the hand coming down from the clouds might be the 'hand of God' and they are some sort of vegetable, with the best one being picked. Here is an image of 'the foot of God' coming from a cloud, an engraving dating from c1600's (much earlier) with some vegetables !
You have to scroll down about a quarter of the way down to see it .....
http://longstreet.typepad.com/thesciencebookstore/art_history/page/16/
Might be a red herring of course ::) The flower looks similar to the flower engraved on the bowl of the glass i.e. six petals .
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Interesting stuff BB,I'll try to get a close up of the cloud/tree tomorrow.
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Mike I think you are on to something with your theory.
m
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I wonder if it's the same story ....they are saffron crocus bulbs and not vegetables ::) The flower on the bowl of the glass does have six pointed petals !
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Here are the close ups,I'm leaning towards sacred hearts,I just wonder whether the had of God would be robed though?
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So am I , the 'veg. / bulbs ' look very heart shaped !
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It maybe something to do with John Calvin as his symbol is a heart aflame in Gods hand?
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After a bit more research Calvinism maybe worth exploring,firstly the 5 points of the movement are represented by the tulip,not the number of petals,but the first letter of the points themselves,there are the small classic engraved tulips on the glass and the larger flowers may well be as well,secondly the Calvinist awakening through Northern Europe and New England is dated to 1730 to 1740,the dates given by Antwerp for the glass,and lastly so far,the heart aflame in the hand of God,the symbol of John Calvin himself...this may explain the amount of engraving on this glass being driven on a wave of religious belief....feel free to shoot all this down,I have been known to be wrong on the odd occasion ::)
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I'm with you on the religious. scared heart theme. ;)
I really suspect you have quite an ancient treasure.
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I think you were the first to get the religious theme Sue,sadly if it was an engraving of a brick I probably still relate that somehow to "frolicking maidens" ;)
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probably a complete red herring here, but picking up on the Calvinism, I wondered whether this might be linked to the Huguenots in some way?
Another red herring perhaps in that the time frame mentioned is the turn of 17th century, but an interesting (glass) point possibly (depending on authority of source etc - article from Wikipedia), in that this article on the Huguenots mentions that:
'Prince Louis de Condé, along with his sons Daniel and Osias,[citation needed] arranged with Count Ludwig von Nassau-Saarbrücken to establish a Huguenot community in present-day Saarland in 1604. The Count supported mercantilism and welcomed technically skilled immigrants into his lands, regardless of their religion. The Condés established a thriving glass-making works, which provided wealth to the principality for many years.' (my underlining)
Source link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot
and copied paragraph out of that article here:
'In Berlin, the Huguenots created two new neighbourhoods: Dorotheenstadt and Friedrichstadt. By 1700, one-fifth of the city's population was French speaking. The Berlin Huguenots preserved the French language in their church services for nearly a century. They ultimately decided to switch to German in protest against the occupation of Prussia by Napoleon in 1806-07. Many of their descendents rose to positions of prominence. Several congregations were founded, such as those of Fredericia (Denmark), Berlin, Stockholm, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Helsinki, and Emden.
Prince Louis de Condé, along with his sons Daniel and Osias,[citation needed] arranged with Count Ludwig von Nassau-Saarbrücken to establish a Huguenot community in present-day Saarland in 1604. The Count supported mercantilism and welcomed technically skilled immigrants into his lands, regardless of their religion. The Condés established a thriving glass-making works, which provided wealth to the principality for many years. Other founding families created enterprises based on textiles and such traditional Huguenot occupations in France. The community and its congregation remain active to this day, with descendants of many of the founding families still living in the region. Some members of this community emigrated to the United States in the 1890s.
In Bad Karlshafen, Hessen, Germany is the Huguenot Museum and Huguenot archive. The collection includes family histories, a library, and a picture archive.'
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Thanks m interesting stuff,Hugenoets seemed to produce a lot of master craftsmen for some reason,they settled in spitalfieds and took over the silk trade here I believe.
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I think your search for more and deeper meaning perhaps a blind alley. Yoyr glass is, I believe, a Freundschaftsglas or friendship glass. They were made in Central Europe until at least the mid 19th century and frequently feature the flaming heart.
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Nothing deeper than love and friendship Antwerp ;)look up the John Calvin coin though,it's even got the sun rays,there are some interesting simeralities I think.(must brush up my computer skills and learn how to put links up).
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http://www.calvin.edu/about/history/calvin-seal.html
m
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See http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Heart
Especially the section near the end on Imagery.
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So is it possible the glass is not a friendship glass but has a religious context? or would you still say that imagery could also mean it is a friendship glass?
I think the wording and the imagery might indicate that it's a religious devotion glass of some sort?
m
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I think the glass would be given by one friend or lover to another. The imagery meaning Let God Keep You Safe and Look After You. The two ideas of friendship and religion don't need to be either/ or but used together.
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http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/two-german-engraved-goblets-circa-1750-the-3905979-details.aspx?intObjectID=3905979
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Right then thanks Antwerp,I've been trying to find engraved hands coming out of clouds for days now ,as I felt that was the key,but if they were used commonly then perhaps we are back to "stud man"picking one girl above his other 7,or a group friendship thing :o ;)
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I'm attaching some images of one of my glasses which has on it the flaming heart next to a flower and the words Nur Allein (No Other or You Alone). To me it's most likely a glass given to the beloved. My glass is probably Hessen from 1760-80.
At that time glasses often had messages on wishing people good luck (with an anchor), celebrating a pregnancy (stork next to cot or Hansie in die Keller), celebrating marriages or with sayings about freedom.
I've seen the Flaming Heart refered to as a symbol of Eternal Love but I'm not overconfident of the source of this info. Perhaps God's eternal love of man becomes eternal love in general.
It's Valentines Day so off to present my glass to 'er in doors. I need all the credit I can get!
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http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15957/lot/425/
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I can see that the flaming heart may be used as an emblem to denote either love of God or as love of another, and I can see that the two are not mutually exclusive.
However the hand coming out of the cloud with the flaming heart is the use of two emblems that both have religious connotations, as far as we can see, under the Calvinism banner.
None of the others linked to show both the emblems do they?
I still think it's possible this glass has a specifically religious meaning.
m
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This is an interesting site, it shows a French coloured slide , two hands from clouds holding a heart with flowers (forget-me-nots) rather than flames. One hand (on the right) , a male hand (possibly) and the other, a female hand . So the two hands aren't the hands of God , but hands which have made their way to heaven . So a single hand might not be the hand of God. A flaming heart , without a cross or encircled with thorns, may not be a 'sacred heart' . It could be less religious and more love or friendship related .
http://artofmourning.com/2014/12/08/faithful-until-death-a-perfect-enamel-slide/
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that's an interesting site.
I still find it odd that there is only one hand on the glass. (odd ...and I find the whole disembodied hand thing creepy to be honest)
But can see there may be a similar interpretation as those on the site.
m
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I can't understand why the hand is choosing one heart from a number of hearts...just don't get it (apart from the stud-man theory :-X ). I thought we were all equal in the eyes of God ? Unless it's a 'chosen one' .
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Perhaps it is symbolic in that a person has died and God's hand is taking that person up to Heaven? i.e. the group of hearts are symbolising many people and one heart being picked up, represents the person who has died?
I know, it's not as appealing a version as the friendship glass/eternal love glass theory ...
And I'm probably wrong - perhaps it's just that I can't look at the picture without seeing a coffin :-X and that' s most probably NOT what it is at all, but is affecting how I view the 'story' behind the glass.
m
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Thanks Mike,having read the article and seen the Christie glass Antwerp posted I'm not sure a hand coming out of a cloud necessarily infers it is gods hand,it could also have been used as a couple in the clouds on a high of emotion,I vaguely remember such a feeling. ::)I still think the Calvin heart aflame,meaning a passionate heart,rather than the sacred heart,to my mind more to do with Jesus ,Mary etc is more relevant ,but mabe not used here as a statement of religious belief more as Antwerp says a token of love.
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This is another piece from the same site , could be worth contacting the site, if possible, as they might be interested in trying to interpret the message , especially if it's associated with someone who has died, as m suggests...
http://artofmourning.com/2012/09/19/in-spite-of-envy-the-ideal-neoclassical-bracelet/
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Thanks again Mike,
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Can't help on the engraving but the glass is almost certainly Bohemian dating from approximately 1740. Here is a picture of a not dissimilar glass that I own.
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Thanks for that Niel,very nice,I've seen a few on the Dr Fischer site dating from about 1730 ,so that's about the area I would say,some from the images I've seen seem a bit thicker with more of a stop or statement ,for want of a better word,between the bowl and stem,mine is light and like yours the twist meanders into the bowl,I don't know if this would date them more precisely.
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I think these were an early form of texting ;D - tiny bit more complicated and a took a bit longer to send but still ...
and possibly what I thought might be clouds on the arm , are sleeves?
I came across this one searching for something else
http://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/215-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=97&artikel=32792&L=1&cHash=aadda23563
The inscription translated by google says
'On back leaf and flower tendrils and inscription
"Honestly l ( i ) provide no hate live and let live also ." '
Think she might have dumped him or spurned his betrothal request, and he sent this to her?
m
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.
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Ivo - are you quoting the line on the original glass of this thread?
If so, I wonder was it her text to him? To say that she had many suitors but she'd chosen him?
or his to her? :)
ah Ivo you took out your quote - so my post is gobbledy gook now ;D
m
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No I'm the gobbledy gooker here. I noticed too late there were 8 pages of text which I wasnt going to read but which I assumed contained the translation.
Unter diesen allen hat mir dieses gefallen = among all of these, this one pleased me. It cannot refer man or woman, from the grammar - so it either refers to the glass itself or to the engraving.
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Thanks m and Ivo,I'm not sure you would go to the trouble of having the glass engraved so elaborately just because you liked the glass itself,so maybe we're back to a religious message,calvinism?
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maybe ... or maybe they are love tokens with 'hidden' messages. Perhaps if you had a gathering, you might just use that one glass to give to the girl you fancied? A kind of way of a suitor choosing a prospective bride.
Having said that I do see what you mean by the Calvinism link though.
I wonder if there are more around with similar 'messages' but without the disembodied arm? i.e. they have a different picture on but the same or similar wording. Then it might indicate that they were love tokens rather than having 'religious' connotations.
m
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I'm probably being a bit thick here,but I think someone's going to have to explain Ivo's post to me very slowly ???
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Ivo's post as far as I read it says the inscription on the glass says
'Amongst all of these, this one pleased me'
So the inscription could either mean , I chose this glass because I liked the glass (in the days where I guess not everyone could afford glasses to drink from?)
So a bit of 'advertising' for the glassmaker or the engraver perhaps? Perhaps they were in competition for selling their wares with other makers/engravers?
or it could be a reference to the engraved picture on the glass - in which case, as you were ... i.e. is it a love token glass or is it a religious (calvanism perhaps?) connotation or reference glass.
I suppose we also have to remember that the 'icons' on the glass may have been seen in other places (pamphlets, books, paintings etc) and just used because they fit a purpose (I want to engrave a heart, ooh that one looks pretty, I'll use that style type thing).
Or they could be oblique references to Calvanism.
Which is why I though it might be good to see if there were others out there with similar inscriptions but different pictures.
Certainly the 18th century milchglas flasks did have pictures depicting love or marriage type thing on them. So the idea was established.
m
m
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"Among all of these,this one pleased me",has a haughty tone don't it...
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Could be a quote, perhaps Goethe or the bible?
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It could as Ivo says, be a quote though.
Re it sounding haughty. In this day and age it does sound a bit patronising (regardless of whether from a man to a woman or vice versa), or a bit as though the giver is in 'control' of the situation as they seem to be doing the picking of the other person.
However, it might just be that was the societal norms of the time - and the boy picked the girl and this was his way of demonstrating that he felt she was the one. It could be seen as quite sweet really. Or it could be more sinister as you've touched on with haughty - i.e. the woman didn't have a choice and was 'selected' and had to do as she was told. And that was the case in certain circles regarding arranged marriages. Probably widespread regardless of class I would think.
But it was likely 200 plus years ago so we need to think of being in that time and why these things were made and given, rather than thinking about how they would be perceived in the here and now. (and thank goodness we've moved on from two hundred years ago is all I'll say ;D - I'm pretty outspoken and I don't think I'd have survived well living in those times).
Anyway, perhaps we can find some more inscribed glasses that have a similar theme but not the arm. That might help distinguish whether it was trending as a love token at the time, or whether they were made to denote allegiance to Calvanism.
m
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https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/565/628-an-engraved-wine-goblet-england-early-19th-century
This one has what looks to me like a man's arm and hand (larger) holding a woman's arm and hand. With the word 'insebarable' (sic).
No sign of flaming hearts that I can see.
Apparently English early 19th. I'm not sure I like them at all. This one looks like they are holding hands above two boxes. They are a bit creepy.
m
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I'm no expert by a long chalk but I wonder if this is bohemian again,Antwerp??...a different age when young lovers could get captured by such sentiment maybe,not like us hard bitten lot,lol.
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Bat20 - not sure which glass we are now talking about!
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Hi Antwerp,hope all is well,m's post 84.
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Hi all,
a fascinating thread. If the translation Ivo provided may refer to the engraving (as he suggests) then a meaning of, "amongst all these (hearts) this alone pleases me," ("this" being the heart held up in the engraving) seems extremely likely. I may have missed this being clearly explained earlier in the thread, it seems most plausable to me as an explanation, for the piece, as a sweetheart gesture. Is this what you were implying Ivo? A really interesting GMB discussion, whatever its course!
Robert (bOBA).