Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Trevor W on February 13, 2015, 05:56:44 PM
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Hi All. I'm a new member and this is my first post.
I have two Ercole Barovier Spuma Di Mare vases and would like any other info you may be able to give me such as likely date or any comments on them. What are the black inclusions. Metal filings?
Any thoughts please. Thanks. Trevor.
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Hi Trevor, welcome to the board!
Do you have any reference for the Barovier attribution?
(The "Spuma di mare" pieces I saw online seem different).
Your vases remind me a lot of those nice bubbly pieces with black inclusions and iridescent finish by a yet unknown Romanian maker:
>> http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49494.0.html (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,49494.0.html)
I don't know how the bases of your vases are finished, those others have a quite distinctive ground (but not polished) base.
I may be totally wrong, though...
Michael
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Hi Michael. Many thanks for your reply.
The vases were purchased from Tremayne Applied Arts, St. Ives in 1999 as Ercole Barovier from the collection of Alan Carter.
The vase in your link does appear to have the same black inclusions and like the description I can feel the bubble texture on the inside. The outside is a deep clear casing and the patches of gold and silver iridescence give it a semi silvered look under reflected light. With backlight the bubbles appear more strongly.
I had seen a vase which was close here
http://www.antiquehelper.com/item/326280#sthash.OqjvCQzB.dpuf
but your example is closer.
The bases are indeed ground without polishing, the tall one has a reference mark. Pics attached.
Thanks again, Trevor
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Hi Trevor,
thank you for providing the base pics!
I am very sorry that I cannot bring any good news, but IMHO no top Murano factory would finish their pieces off with that kind of roughly ground base.
Both your lovely vases look like they come from that Romanian maker mentioned in the other thread.
I cannot find any more pieces online atm, but I have seen a few over the years, also in similar shape to your vases. They come in different colours (I saw a beautiful yellow one a few years ago), but the iridescence, the bubbles plus black inclusions, and the matte base are quite distinctive.
Unfortunately, antiques dealers and even reputable auction houses frequently get attributions wrong :(
The one you linked to on antiquehelper seems quite different to yours, but even for that one I would like to see the provenance (or at least a confirmed piece in the exact same technique).
Michael
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Hi Michael.
Thanks for you help. I wonder if we'll ever know the maker.
Trevor.
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Hi Trevor, I got your message. :)
I hadn't read this thread, because I know nothing about Italian glass.
Unfortunately, somebody has substituted a swiss cheese for my brain in recent years and I cannot remember where the "unknown, but Romanian maker" attribution came from for these quite distinctive pieces.
I haven't seen any popping up for quite a long time.
Something in the recesses of that cheese is suggesting it might have come from Frank's encyclopoedia of a mind.
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no top Murano factory would finish their pieces off with that kind of roughly ground base.
You may not wish to include AVeM in the top category but they often left bases ground and unpolished even on the Anse Volante vases.
John
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Seguso SVdA and Gino Cenedese were also wont to leave the bases of some items - usually scavo-finished - roughly ground. Sometimes fairly crudely.
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Hi Sue. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.
Who is Frank. Is he a glass messages member?
Thanks, Trevor.
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My statement was probably too apodictic 8)
Murano glass is such a wide area...
On the other hand, my first thought when seeing a base finish like that wouldn't be "top Murano" ;)
@John: I only ever saw 3 AVeM "anse volante" pieces live, and they all had properly polished bases.
Even in the mass produced tutti frutti range, only the dainty toothpick holders and small vases seem to come with unpolished bases; all bowls I have seen so far, and my big vase have a nicely finished base.
@Nic: to find a roughly ground base on a "Scavo" piece wouldn't surprise me that much.
My SVdA pieces have the most elaborate base finish in all my collection.
Can you show me a crude finish on a non-Scavo piece?
@Trevor: Frank is one of the most knowledgable glass people, and a member on this board (nickname "Frank"): >> Link to his profile page (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=profile;u=9)
So obviously opinions differ, and as I said I may be wrong.
I am curious if we find out more about the maker of these pieces...
Michael
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Sorry again, Trevor. Frank is such a well-known expert/enthusiast/personality in glass I sometimes forget the whole world doesn't know about him.
The "attribution" came about a very long time ago. I have never encountered any information to the contrary about them. They just occassionally pop up and the same attribution is given again.
It WOULD be good to find out more. Meanwhile though, I'm pleased to have the bits I do. I like them. :)
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@Nic: to find a roughly ground base on a "Scavo" piece wouldn't surprise me that much.
My SVdA pieces have the most elaborate base finish in all my collection.
Can you show me a crude finish on a non-Scavo piece?
I'll have to have a rummage in my image folder, but I suspect that any immediate photographic evidence will have been on my old - long-since dead - computer. The prime example that leaps to mind is a series of Albarelli-era tall wrythen candlesticks that were decidedly bodged together.
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Thank you Nic. I think that was my point...
There are surely exceptions (and maybe not too few considering the long tradition of glassmaking in Venice), but bases like the ones on the pieces in question don't seemt to be the rule on Murano pieces, high or low end.
Funny that no one except Sue and me seems to be familiar with these bubbly pieces.
I have seen probably more than a dozen through the last years, on fleamarkets and online, both vases and ashtrays.
(On ebay Germany they are usually offered as Löffelhardt for Zwiesel)
They come in a variety colours, including green, blue and bright yellow, and always have the flat roughly ground base and the metallic iridescence.
I first heard of the Romanian attribution here on the GMB, but it seemed very convincing.
Michael
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That they seem to turn up from mostly around east-ish europe does support the Romanian theory. ;)
I do believe they have some age - perhaps '60s, '70s '80s? I don't know. The style is quite "retro" but if they were coming from behind the Iron Curtain, they may well have been more advanced in style than from this side of it.
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That these are known and of a very high quality it would seem likely that they are not Italian. It might be worth asking the gallery you bought from if they can put you in touch with Alan Carter. The Initials on the piece are probably Carter' s collection mark and II could well be for a Romanian maker as I is a common initial... Ioan Nemtoi for example. But as the attribution to Romania is not supported you might have to spread your search wider.
Contacting Romanian art museums might help http://romaniatourism.com/arts.html Also try Institute of Fine Arts Glass Department in Bucharest and Klansenburg. Dan Bancila has been involved in Romanian studio glass since the 70s http://danbancila.blogspot.co.uk if he does not recognise it it will probably not be Romanian.
You could also ask Stilart as they have been around for quite a while but they would not have made these. www.stilart.ro
see also for base finish:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,46846.msg264427.html#msg264427
This Seguso is similar technique but miles away in the way it is made. http://www.moltabellaglass.com/items/551157/en1store.html
Would also consider Turkey for some reason. Gormus for example... but a long shot.
Thread should move to glass
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Hi Frank.
I appreciate your input and I'll try your suggestions.
Many thanks
Trevor
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Hi Frank. For some reason I missed checking the link to the Mario Pinzoni for Seguso at moltobellaglass.com you gave.
Well I'm convinced this is a copy of the same vase, surely. I have taken the liberty of placing those images and mine side by side. I'm seeing the same bubble size variations and occasional pointed bubbles. There are small bubbles within bubbles on both, the same striations and contents in the bubbles (they look like plant or animal cells) and the exact same size and form of black inclusions. The vases look to be as identical as you could get. Iridescence, indentations at base, ground base, same height within a centimeter. The only difference I see is the bubbles go further into the rim on the Seguso.
So Moltabelloglass attributes this to Mario Pinzoni but also says "Perhaps this is an earlier 1930's Barovier piece or Flavio Poli for Seguso. They all produced similar techniques." So we come back to Ercole Barovier again.
What do you think, Frank and others.
Thanks
Trevor.
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I strongly suspect moltobello glass is clueless about the vase they have.
I think it is the same as yours, but that their attribution is just wishful thinking. ;)
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Yes I suspect that too Sue. I'm going to carry on the search with Frank's suggestions. I'm really want to find the maker.
Trevor.
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I agree with Sue. Bubble pieces are a basic technique that was widely used and the world is full of unknowns :-(
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There are a few more of us really, really want to know too!
They are good pieces, well-made, interesting and I believe they have some (small) age, although I don't know how much, I would think the "retro" sort of implied era.
Your query though, has added you to the list of us who have found these, liked them and been curious enough to buy them in the hope that an attribution might be found some day. ;D
We don't give up here on the gmb. Some attributions happen in minutes, some take years.
This is one that has been ongoing for years. It's stuck in some of our heads, we're always on the lookout for an id and when it happens, it will be announced here. ;D