Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: Ohio on February 25, 2015, 10:19:51 PM
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Picked this up today, signed Loetz Austria, 9 1/2" diameter & 3 1/2" height. Now I am not up to par with Loetz decors am not certain so am asking if this is Candia Papillon? Thanks
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I hope I'm wrong but I always thought the signature had to be wheel-engraved and not diamond-tip signed? ???
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Creta Papillon not Candia
Creta is green
Candia more amber
alas I think Anne Tique might be right it could be an added signature -but it doesn't stop the piece being 100% Loetz
Mike
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Thanks Mike...I revisited the patterns & you are correct...I just could not visualize the differences with my bifocals...thats a better explaination than admitting its an age factor. Again Mike most appreciated. Ken
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I hope I'm wrong but I always thought the signature had to be wheel-engraved and not diamond-tip signed? ???
While I do not normally buy Loetz since 75%+ of the Loetz in U.S. antique shops & malls is actually Rindskopf & Kralik, I have looked into the signatures "deal" over the years just in case. Loetz signatures were engraved using a high oscillation engraving needle...a wheel was not used. Secondly while one example exhibits characters that are broad to the point of being misshapen & carries what are purported to be lines under high magnification thus proclaiming this is what all signatures should look like, there are advanced knowledgable collectors that believe this is not the case that there were variations possibly by use of different equipment/methods over the years although everyone does agree signed pieces should not exist past 1903. I don't get into these debates between parties as to which is the correct view...you cannot win. Of course it was orginally believed that signed pieces only existed on exports which now has proven to be incorrect. The signature on mine is engraved to a significant depth & is relatively broad in character so I am not overly concerned when comparison to others are in the ballpark.
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Thanks for the explanation re the signature, several sites mention wheel-engraved .... but obviously this is a way of describing that particular signature.
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Interesting -I missed the information that signatures do not exist post 1903 (makes sense)- but where is that stated?
Also, although it wasn't only export pieces that were signed, I thought the vast majority of signatures were probably due to export (predominantly to US not at that time rest of Europe) in fact I thought the only others were for exhibitions and other special occasions.
M
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I live in the United States. The way I heard is that L. C. TIFFANY sued Loetz because his work was to similar to his. Thus for only the last 20 years of production was signed. I have only seen a couple of signed pieces and I do not remember the Technic. I was said that an antique dealer north of us, for $5 her husband would pull a stylus out of his shirt pocket and signed your piece with any name you want. A lot of collectors in the USA became weary of possible false signatures and stopped buying glass.
Does any one here know how many workers worked for Loetz? The glass blowers and decorators. Also the actual years in business?
Thanks, Bob
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Thanks for the explanation re the signature, several sites mention wheel-engraved .... but obviously this is a way of describing that particular signature.
Well thats what one well known site states...another states wheel engraved. Thats always been the problem with these Loetz websites as their views/facts at times do not match up with one another. Its a minefield even though the individuals behind them are well known..
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Well thats what one well known site states...another states wheel engraved. Thats always been the problem with these Loetz websites as their views/facts at times do not match up with one another. Its a minefield even though the individuals behind them are well known..
Sorry, ...i wasn't referring to your explanation ... which makes more sense ... it's just like you said, several sites label it wheel-engraved.
Maybe I expressed myself not very well, but I meant the wheel-engraved signature when I mentioned 'that particular signature'... sorry for the confusion.
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Interesting -I missed the information that signatures do not exist post 1903 (makes sense)- but where is that stated?
Also, although it wasn't only export pieces that were signed, I thought the vast majority of signatures were probably due to export (predominantly to US not at that time rest of Europe) in fact I thought the only others were for exhibitions and other special occasions.
M
Mike its one one of the sites...maybe Al's maybe David's & I am tied up today with grandkids so you may have to surf the 4-5 Loetz sites & read through them but one of them has it although come to think it may have been meant that this particular signature. Keep in mind that Loetz had multiple signatures, crossed arrows with Austria undeneath & later the numerous Czecho (appearing on top) & Slovakia (appearing on the bottom) The the same name with a star in an oval that meant export. The Czecho (appearing on top) & Slovakia (appearing on the bottom) is particular troubling because other Czech firms used this marking also. Yes if you believe most of these sites the majority production of not only Loetz but Rindskopf & Kralik were exported all over the world & I've seen estimates along the lines of 70% & included (other than the U.S.) were South America, Mexico & India. Who knows? Yes I believe all exposition pieces in Europe were also signed so again you are faced with a where does this match up question?. Then later on some pieces carries a cameo signature not excluding Richard who Loetz made glass for.
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I live in the United States. The way I heard is that L. C. TIFFANY sued Loetz because his work was to similar to his. Thus for only the last 20 years of production was signed. I have only seen a couple of signed pieces and I do not remember the Technic. I was said that an antique dealer north of us, for $5 her husband would pull a stylus out of his shirt pocket and signed your piece with any name you want. A lot of collectors in the USA became weary of possible false signatures and stopped buying glass.
Does any one here know how many workers worked for Loetz? The glass blowers and decorators. Also the actual years in business?
Thanks, Bob
Bob I have no idea the size of the Loetz workforce so someone else may be able to answer that. Around 1840 Johann Loetz acquired an existing glassworks founded by Johann B. Eisner von Eisenstein. Loetz died in 1848 & his widow Suzanne operated with Johann Loetz's grandson Max Ritter von Spaun manager it from 1870 to 1879 when he purchased it. Operations continued until 1914...suspended until 1918 (WWI) plant destroyed by fire in 1932, rebuilt & continued to operate until 1947.
Yes we've always had LCT problems in the U.S. for decades, not only signatures but pieces made by others carrying the LTC fake signatures. Even today (and for prior years to boot) Lundberg studio pieces are frequently found with LCT signatures just as Terry Crider studio glass can be found (especially his early threaded production & hanging heart designs) signed Durand. It will never end so just do your research the best you can.
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Many thanks Ohio
a couple of points which I think are right (but folk please chip in if you disagree) -mostly for clarity of other readers;
The USA required country of origin marked on foreign made items from, oh gosh, I think 1890 (McKinley Tariff act -or the 1893 amendment) -as they had to put the country of origin on all their wares sold into USA - Loetz added the company name too -mostly marking Loetz Austria (technically not the country of origin, but close enough -depends how you define country) variants of the McKinley act still stand I believe.
At its peak Loetz got quite big (if Alisa is around she's better on this) they had 3 glass producing sites -in an around immediate area. Not sure of employee numbers.
Also like many bohemian glass makers Loetz did not really 'make and then sell' they pretty much only made what had been commissioned by retailers -so it wasn't Loetz selling in the USA - it was US retailers commissioning work from Loetz and importing it -these retailers were quite likely to be importing from Kralik, Rindskopf etc etc too (hence much of the confusion)
Many books claim Loetz directly copied Tiffany's style - but I've always found this very unlikely -biggish influence maybe -but the whole idea of making this kind of iridised glass came from much closer to home. Way way before either made Iridised glass - it was first commercially made, much earlier (1873) and only 10 miles down the road from Loetz by Wilheim Kralik - when he ran Meyr's Neffe glass and it was made exclusively for Lobmeyr (oh and following a formula nicked from the Hungarian Leo Valentin Pantocsek).
sorry enough of my wittering!
M
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Thanks Mike for the info regarding Loetz production size. Yes it was the 1890 act that required the geographic location of imports to the U.S. & was amended in 1914 to add "made in". I suppose Austria was perhaps used as a marketing tool over Loetz Bohemia if I had to venture why Austria was used then after 1918 the Czecho-slovakia label was probably more accurate. Importers/retailers in the U.S. most certainly placed mass orders during this period. The old Butler Bros. catalogs contain many pages citing Bomenian glass imports & several well known individuals have used these to ID point of origin manufacturers during the turn of the century imports.
I did manage able to locate the site which specified the time period of signing although I am not 100% certain how it should be interpreted, maybe you can make better sense of the statement than I can.
"The signatures discussed are those on art nouveau glass, or rather, signatures engraved during the period 1898 to 1903, predominantly in 1900 and 1901. This was the only period in which Loetz glass was signed. ( We are not discussing cameo marks, rare designer monograms, paper labels, or etched Czechoslovakia variations from after 1918. )"
http://users.skynet.be/fa000612/identifying.htm
Ken
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Great thanks for the link (was looking for that and couldn't find it) that's Eddies old site -old information compared to recent developments but Eddie is/was usually right!