Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Scott13 on April 07, 2015, 09:08:44 AM
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Hi---I was wondering whether anyone can help me with this vase?
It appears to have been flashed, which( depending upon the light) gives it's surface an almost mirror like quality.
It has a soft Pontil and the base wear suggests the 60's/70's.
The stylised flowers have been wheel engraved.
Ht 16 cms
Wt 340 gms
Any opinions re it's identity would be great.
Thanks Scott
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I'm going to suggest Caithness from the 2001 catalogue, possibly from the 'Images' range - the colour is about right, and the wheel engraving is very similar although I can't find this exact design in Mark Hill's book. If it is Caithness, then it won't have been flashed.
Of course, I could be very wrong :)
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had also meant to ask the meaning of 'a soft Pontil' - new one on me :)
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Hi Paul, thanks for your comments.
I'm pretty sure it's been flashed-- but I could also be wrong!
On the rim there's a very fine ( slightly iridescent) demarcation line between the clear inner and cased outer.
A similar line can be seen at the base.
The glass outer surface also seems to be unusually reflective-- almost mirror like.
And the casing appears to to be extremely thin.
I'm not sure whether these are the only features you'd expect to find on a flashed piece.
Perhaps you could tell me?
I did think of Caithness but the rims and bases aren't quite the same.
A soft Pontil--- a bit like the Caithness one?
Scott
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Caithness vases don't have pontil marks - they have cut and polished rims. Any base marks are from cooling not from being on the pontil iron.
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right then, not Caithness - has some similarities in a visual sense, that's my excuse. :)
sorry, still can't visualize this 'soft pontil' - do you mean it has some remains of a pontil scar - or is there a depression where the scar has been removed? Might it help us if we could see a shot of the base?
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Hi-- it seems as if I've used the wrong term re the base. It does look as if the mark , if you can call it that, has been formed by cooling glass.
I'll take a picture of it in daylight tomorrow, it might even show the fine demarcation line I mentioned.
Is there anything I should look for, to confirm that it's been flashed?
Scott
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any cutting or engraving will obviously cut through the flashing, so this should help to determine whether or not.
You could scratch the base with a steel file - that should cut through any flashing too, if present ;D
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Hi--- here's the shot of the base----it's the best I could do.
Hopefully, you'll also be able to see the edge of the blue film of glass.
Thanks for your suggestion re establishing whether it has or has not been flashed----I'm going to think about it---long term!
Scott
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I think it is iridised not flashed. In flashing the piece is submerged in a very liquid coating; iridised glass is held in the fumes of (traditionally) tin chloride and hydrochloric acid , producing a metallic sheen. Alternatively, the piece is sprayed with such a mixture, or it can be painted on. These procedures are much used in countries like Mexico, Turkey and India; much less so in western Europe or the US..
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looking again think Ivo is probably correct - the surface does have that almost slightly carnival type of iridescent appearance that you see on the smooth insides of some 'marigold' bowls.
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Hi, Ivo and Paul
Ivo I'm sure you're right.
However, I'm just beginning to think that I may have over emphasised the iridescent qualities of the glass.
The iridescence is essentially confined to the rim at the join( and only really becomes evident with a 10x lens); there is very little evidence of surface or any other iridescence in the body of the piece( in a bright light)
I know I may appear to be back-pedalling like mad and I apologise if I've misled you all.
Please take into account my lack of experience.
I've posted another, hopefully better picture.
Thanks
Scott
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I suspect this is Caithness but considerably newer than 1960s. The shape and general style look OK. The top and bottom look OK. The engraving may be sand blasted though, not wheel engraved. Many coloured glass items are not solid colour but a thin layer of colour over or under clear. The colour is the expensive bit.
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if it is, then I don't think it's from the range I mentioned - it looks a little too blue for 'Images'. But there were some groups from the 1990's that possibly matched a little closer.
However, I'd go with Scott's thoughts that it's engraved, rather than sand blasted - the image looks to have some depth in places.
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I'm 99.9 percent sure that it's been wheel engraved----it has, depth and you can see the marks/lines left by the engravers wheel( using a 10x lens)
It certainly hasn't been acid etched as I've been able to compare it with an etched Caithness piece I have.
Sand blasting I know nothing about----I'm assuming that it leaves an even finish as well.
The reason I thought it might have come from the 60's/70's was because of the amount of base wear--- but of course this wear could be misleading.
Thanks for your contributions.
Scott
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Sandblasting is done in layers, so it's not flat. Most Caithness was actually sandblasted even from the early days, apparently. Your vase looks like a 4019 in Twilight made from the 1960s through to the 1980s, and engraved or sandblasted from the 1970s. As far as I know, Caithness didn't acid etch
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Hi---I've had a look at some images of the 4019 and I can see the similarity ,however,it's shape looks a bit different; more barrel than bullet.
It's rim also looks thinner.
Thanks for your help and also for providing the info on sandblasting.
Scott
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Hi---however much I'd like to think that the vase I've got is an early Caithness one, there are a couple of things that prevent me from doing so.
1: I'm not sure whether Caithness flashed items prior to engraving.
2: The rim of my vase hasn't been ground and polished. I understand this tends to be a feature of most Caithness vases.
Anyway I'd like to thank you all for taking the time and trouble to help---much appreciated.
Scott
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Something must have been done to your rim, as there is no pontil mark and it certainly looks ground. And, if the base part is not coloured, your vase wasn't flashed. As I said before the colour is often a thin layer
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Hi---the rim has definitely not been ground---I've looked using a 10x lens.
In this instance the camera did lie.
The rims of my Caithness vases are flat and clearly defined. And you can see( on the inside edge ) minute flakes left by the grinder.
The rim of my vase isn't nearly as flat, in fact, in places it's quite curved. And there's no sign of flaking anywhere. It might have been fire-polished?
I'll try and describe it's exterior surface as best I can.
The film( for want of a better word, I'll call it that ) starts at the top of the rim--approx mid-way.
There's a very faint join line here. It's here that you get some iridescence/rainbow colours ( only really noticeable under a lens)
This film has been applied to cover the whole external surface of the vase ( other than the base ie the bit it sits on)
The film finishes about 1-2mm from the bottom of the vase. Where it finishes there's another very faint line, albeit wavy in places.
So ,the only part that hasn't been covered is essentially the part that the vase sits on.
The base, which is clear, is fairly dished. In it's centre there is possibly the vestige of a Pontil scar---a small hardly noticeable swelling.
I hope all this makes sense.
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It could be spray paint you know. The Chinese do a lot of this: industrial glass, fire polished rim, decorate with spray on colour, a few quick cut decorations and presto. Minimum order size 50,000. You can test it with a knife but it is destructive. You can also lose the coating if you wash it with a vinegar based "eco-friendly" washing up liquid.
I cannot say it often enough: never trust a coloured vase with a clear bottom.
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You could well be right Ivo.
The engraving however has been done extremely skilfully ( wheel) and it's weight and base wear makes me think that it can't be Chinese. Of course this could all be wishful thinking on my part.
I know some Chinese glass is pretty good ,and if this is one of theirs, then I'm going to start collecting it ;starting today.
Scott
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Hi---could this flash vase, conceivably be, an engraved Geoffrey Baxter piece?
The colour and age are right. I've come to the conclusion that it's colour is probably Whitefriars Sapphire Blue.
Introduced in 1949. It's the best match I could find.
It also has features in common with a GB fish engraved vase shown in Miller's , Glass of the 50's & 60's, A Collector's Guide, by Nigel Benson. ( page 42 )
The mouths (if I can call them that) of the seed pods ( my vase) look exactly the same as the mouths of the fish ( G B's vase)
I'm pretty sure the leaves and petals ( of the larger flower) of my vase ,have also been fashioned by
" a single unpolished sweep of the wheel " as described by Nigel Benson in his book.
The " sparse, fine, wheel-engraved lines " mentioned by Nigel Benson are common to both vases.
Any thoughts?
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from the few examples of W/F's I've had, I can't see this one as remotely being Sapphire blue - which is very much a sort of transparent light/pale blue, and certainly lacks the slight surface appearance of iridescence - as can be seen on your vase, Scott.
This one has an almost dark appearance compared to Sapphire.
There are plenty of examples of sapphire in Leslie Jackson's book 'Whitefriars Glass'.
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This looks fairly new to me, i have a set of champagne glasses similar to this i'm going to use for my daughters 18th this year (just in case they get broken), the base wear is not reliable in dating anything on it's own, here is one of the kids favourite glasses about 8 years old and the champagne with a similar cut and colour.
Regards Chris.
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Definitely not Whitefriars and the "seed pods" are lily of the valley.
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Thanks for your illuminating replies. Much appreciated.
As for me---it's back to the learning curve.
Scott
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join the club........ :) many of us go through the same process. If you use the Board's search facility - and punch in something like Whitefriars sapphire blue or similar, then this should bring up enough links with pix to help with understanding quite what sapphire looks like in the flesh. Similarly, the same approach should help with other colours.
There may be several sources here than are equally as good, but if you look at Emmi Smith's (Vidrioguapo) Whitefriars site, I'm sure there will be much there to help - at least with W/F's colours.
http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e57/emmismith/#!cpZZ1QQtppZZ16
I hope the link works - I'm not too good at these techie things.
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Hi---I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to identifying colours, so thanks for the advice and providing the link---and thanks also for the reassuring words.