Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: nick.a on May 09, 2015, 06:31:40 AM
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Hi,
I think this recent charity shop find may be a c1820 'Prussian' shaped three ring decanter with 'mushroom' stopper, but then I'm basing that on pictorial evidence from the internet. I would appreciate any pointers, information or advice from anyone, as to age, style, country of origin etc.
Many thanks
Regards
Nick
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your description of the shape and neck ring decoration looks to be correct - although whether it is from the period you mention is more difficult to be certain of.
This shape was most popular from about 1790 - 1830, and period examples should have the rings 'applied' - rather than formed together with the body as with later bottles. With Georgian/Regency examples it's often possible to see the join where neck rings were attached to the body - almost a crack-like appearance.
Unfortunately for us, the shape was reproduced quite commonly in the early years of the C20, and probably at odd times since - and some of these are very good quality, and by now will have acquired a lot of wear.
There was massive variation in cutting with these things and the shape was not uncommon in a variety of European locations plus the States, so pinning this to a specific origin is a bit of a non-starter, although could well be British in origin. This one looks to have less cutting than many - not sure but looks like slice cutting on the shoulder with vertical blazes, diamonds short cut panels lower down.
Is the stopper cut entirely, or is it moulded? Apparently some mushrooms were partly moulded, although a lot were fully cut. It should sit with a good fit.
Perhaps someone else will be stirred to comment :)
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Hi Paul,
I was hoping that you would reply, I've read a number of your posts on decanters and found them very informative as usual.
All three of the neck rings are irregular, applied and have the joins which appear 'crack like'. I'd say the stopper was probably not moulded, there are no mould lines and there are striation/tooling signs to the neck. The 'mushroom cap' is totally covered with a cut star and the stopper fits tightly, so I'd guess it's probably original. Even if it's a more modern copy, it's still worth every penny of the £4.99 it cost me :). Thanks once again for all the helpfull information, it's much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Nick
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hi nick - all I can say is that it sounds as though you have a real bargain - £4.99 is a steal for what you have there, even if yours is not c. 1810 - although from what you say it does appear it may be late Georgian.
not easy to describe in words what it is that makes something c. 1800 rather than a mid C20 copy - only experience and a lot of looking at old glass will help to understand the difference.
Colour, seeds in the glass, wear, the effects of cutting - just some of the features that help. Modern glass is, usually, too clear and bright, and wear is a big help - not just in the obvious places, but on all those parts of the glass that come into contact with other objects - if something has been around for that length of time it acquires wear (and sometimes damage) in the most unlikely of places.
Most genuinely old pieces that we find in charity shops are either missing stoppers, cloudy, or chipped (relief diamonds so often have damage to their tips) - so if you do have a genuine piece and it's in good condition then you are lucky.
I know it's expensive, but if you are into decanters, then Andy McConnell's book 'The Decanter' is a must - not just for decanters, but it's such an interesting read - Neil tells us that Andy is bringing out a new edition - but when I'm not sure. Until then a copy might cost you a lot of shekels, so might be an idea to wait for a while. Perhaps one of us should speak to the author and see if there is a time line to the project.
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Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. I'd like both of Andy's books, but there's also Slack and Cottle, and I've only just bought the Sowerby CD's and Hajdamach. The problem is, the more this 'obsession' grabs you, the more expensive it becomes. My primary interest is English pressed glass, but I always seem to buy any of the sparkly stuff that catches my eye. Lately I seem to have acquired a 'Newcastle' ribbed decanter, a Webb's 'Bristol' blue ships decanter and this 'Prussian' one. Not quite a collection yet, but I may have to stop it in it's infancy, I haven't the space. Then again, there's something about them ;D.
Kind Regards
Nick
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would like to see a pic of your 'Newcastle' decanter, if possible Nick. I've no experience of pieces classified as such, but McConnell appears to be suggesting there is some doubt as to the value of this description, insofar as most of them look to have been made 'in soda glass across Europe, probably excepting Britain'.
It's a term that may have been coined by dealers "possibly awarded because they were imported through the port of Newcastle" - most appear to be either tapers or prussians, and with a high proportion having mushroom stoppers.
Was the seller able to substantiate this provenance in any way, or is this simply your own stab at origin? :)
Decanters are almost limitless in their variety - you may need a bigger house, eventually. ;D
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According to Therle Hughes "Decanters and Glasses" Country Life Books, 1982, he says ' by the late 1820's to 1830's ,however , the most important decorative detail was probably the wide shallow vertical flute ' . ....i.e. the cuts fanning out below the bottom neck ring on this example .The base looks similar to photos of bases to Prussian shaped decanters , also shown in the book , which date from c1790. He also mentions that 'shallow geometrical cutting gave place to the deep cutting, that was developed gradually in the early 19th century '
Your cuts,Nick, look quite shallow as far as I can see .
I have a Regency water carafe with similar joins in the neck rings (only two) as Paul mentioned above plus yours has loads of age to the base it seems.
Cheers, Mike
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hope you won't object to my correction Mike - Therle Hughes was in fact a lady - the wife of G. Bernard Hughes :)
Regret this is not a book that I have - although I do have the lady's volume 'Sweetmeat & Jelly Glasses' - small and rather brief, but very interesting.
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Hells-Bells !!
So she is ....so sorry :-X
I was too tied-up in the detail to reference the author properly :(
P.S. No base photos are shown in the book but on page 84 (top right) there are two Prussian decanters that have bases which have markedly depressed bases...i.e not flat with polished pontil mark.
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Hi Paul,
I'll gladly post a seperate topic on the 'Newcastle' decanter when I have a minute to take some pics. Ebay has plenty, mostly with a ballon type stopper like this: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=&_osacat=50693&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xnewcastle+pillar+decanter.TRS0&_nkw=newcastle+pillar+decanter&_sacat=50693. Mine has a mould blown feel to it with two applied neck rings and a rough pontil.
The name seems to be generic, and your/ Andy's explanation of the derivation seems plausible ('Bristol' blue thing). I used the name because when I was searching for an ID initially I used Google Images and that was what came back, I've since read it on several sites and, if I remember rightly, some publications. The guy who sold it to me at a local bootsale had little idea about it hence the £1.00 cost ;).
Glass collecting is like a highly enjoyable virus, but I might draw a line at the house move ;D.
Kind Regards
Nick
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for the information. You're right about the wide, shallow vertical cuts, I'd say about 2mm deep. It would be nice to think that this could be my first piece of 18thc glass, that knocks 30 years off my best case scenario. We live in hope ;D.
Cheers
Nick
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thanks for the ebay link. There is an (unwritten) practice here that we don't comment on individual listings, but from what I can see the word Newcastle, which forms part of the description of similar decanters looks to be at odds with McConnell's use of the word, in terms of general shape.
Similarly shaped bottles to those shown in your link appear to be described elsewhere as straight forward c. mid C19 pillar-moulded ribbed bell decanters - and you can see the bell-shaped likeness in most of them - one of the most distinctive shape of all bottles.
My opinion is that this ribbed bell-shape of decanter - probably dip-moulded rather than free blown - appears not to be related to those prussians and tapers from a little earlier in the C19, which were originally called 'Newcastle' type (whether rightly or wrongly)
Also, as far as I can see in the books, the supposed Newcastle bottles look to have almost always had the applied three neck rings which the pillar-moulded examples don't.
There may be the thought in the minds of some sellers which believes that word association - especially if implying rarity - gives added kudos and value.
As an alternative to re-locating your dwelling - you might consider buying a shed or two ;)
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Thanks Paul, very helpful as always. I'll delete Newcastle from my description and replace it with 'bell-shaped' and 'pillar moulded'. I'll keep adding to the literature over time, as it's apparent that any information gathered from anywhere else, excepting certain glass specific websites, should be taken with a pinch of salt. So much to learn. London town house I'm afraid, postage-stamp garden with little room for a shed :)
Kind Regards
Nick
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Hi Nick,
It's those wide shallow cuts which, according to Therle Hughes , were introduced as a design feature in the 1820/30's and other cuts started to get deeper during the start of the 19th century. So it would date your 'Prussian' one to 1820/30 , assuming it's not a later copy. What I was trying to say is that the base looks similar to the base on examples from c1790 . Perhaps the base didn't change much up until c1820/30's ? (you would need a decanter expert to comment on that ! )......Cheers, Mike.
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Iv'e been looking at photos of late Georgian decanters (books/internet) and the bases can be flat , flat & cut , concave ...so not much help there !
Therle Hughes says in her book that 'The Prussian shape ' was 'named and illustrated by John Keeling of Dudley in 1784 '.
She also mentions that mushroom stoppers during the late Georgian period were usually flat on the underside and decanters 'would often be fitted with stoppers from outside suppliers , using perhaps a slightly different quality of glass' . There is a photo, however, in 'Irish Glass' by Mary Boydell of a mushroom stopper that is the same shape as this example which dates from c1830 but it has vertical cuts made to the underside.
I'm going to have to get Andy's book , when it's reprinted !
Cheers, Mike ;)
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Hi,been following this thread with interest since I'd found one some time ago and I'm fairly certain it's a Prussian from the early 19th,it has the colour,wear in the right places and bits in the glass including stopper,the stopper fits like a glove but it ain't flat on the underside,something that I had noticed from flicking about the intoe,don't know if this helps or hinders?
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Very interesting !
Perhaps the underside and 'stalk' of the mushroom stopper were left blank in these examples ?
'Irish Glass ' by Mary Boydell is part of 'The Irish Heritage Series' and is number 5 . It's a booklet published by Eason & Sons Ltd , Dublin in 1976. Published in Great Britain by Jarrold & Sons Ltd , Norwich . :)
Thanks Bat
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I think there could be so many variables as well Mike,I was pondering today at work wether they would regularly get new stoppers when theirs were damaged,cheap skilled labour and all,so some may have been on their umpteenth stopper by the mid century maybe?
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Yes, I'm sure the outside suppliers of stoppers would have had a replacement service. :)
I found my old copy of Letts ' English Bottles and Decanters 1650-1900 ' by Derek C. Davis.
There are a number of late Georgian decanters illustrated with mushroom stoppers which taper and are not flat underneath .
Some of the tapering ones have slice cut shafts others are left blank . The tapering ones would have been far easier to cut (i would imagine) than mushroom stoppers that were completely flat to the underside. :D
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Oh joy..a book for under a fiver,thanks Mike pushing the button on that one ;D
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It's a very good , broad introduction to the subject which also includes some Irish glass and some examples of miniature decanters . First published in 1972 however !
There is quite an interesting Irish straight sided decanter illustrated on page 50 (looks like a Prussian shape but it doesn't taper towards the base , just straight) and the description is as follows......
'An Irish quart sized decanter of straight-sided shape with a central band of diamond cutting, broad flutes on the shoulder, narrow flutes below (same as yours Bat near the base) double cut slice cut neck, diamond cut mushroom stopper.Height 10.5 inches date c1810.'
He then goes on to say.......' After 1810 the vogue for more cutting on glass became marked , and a decade followed when diamond cutting and broad and narrow flute cutting on decanters and drinking glasses became very popular' and ...............' The earlier sharp diamond cutting gave way after 1810 to a softer variation known as strawberry and rosette diamond cutting '
I'm not sure which category of diamond cutting yours comes under Nick !?
Hope this can help, Cheers, MIke
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Just wanted to add one last comment.....
The references I have given above are fairly old, Derek Davis's book was published in 1972 and Therle Hughes's book , in 1982. So a decade between the publishing dates . There is also a decade between their dates for the beginning of additional ,more elaborate cuts to decanters (especially wide/broad, shallow flutes ) . Mr Davis says 1810 , Mrs Hughes, 1820-30 . Most of the late Georgian decanters illustrated in Derek Davis's book are described as c1810. I guess it was just a gradual evolution and ten years variance with the date isn't worth questioning, perhaps ?..... 'Late Georgian' can cover it all. :)
Maybe , ( c. ) 40 years of added study on this subject of decanters, could have changed the date-line, slightly, with these details (or not ??? ) ?
Ta, Mike :D
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Hi,
Thanks for all the very helpful information Mike. To answer your question, the diamond cutting is fairly crisp, not withstanding 200 years of wear and tear. To all who have contributed to this topic, a big thank you for increasing my knowledge of decanters tenfold. I shall definitely be including a decanter book in my 'must have' list.
Kind Regards
Nick