Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: nick.a on May 25, 2015, 05:30:13 PM
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Hi,
I have very limited information on Henry Greener, but I believe that this 'daisy & button'/ 'daisy & hobnail' sugar basin has their 'lion & halberd' trademark imprinted on the base. I would appreciate any opinions/information on pattern/registration and date of manufacture.
Kind regards
Nick
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hi Nick - looks as tho you are probably correct with the Greener attribution - according to Ray Slack the lion rampant with halberd was used by their factory for about the last fifteen years of the C19. Lattimore shows a page from the Pottery Gazette for April 1887 which shows a variety of designs which were produced for the Golden Jubilee - almost all of which have this daisy and hobnail pattern.
Regret I'm not familiar with your particular sugar, and in the absence of a Rd. No. we may be able to pin down a date accurately, but certainly Greener did produce sugars (like just about everyone else) - have looked in the books but unable to see this particular design - perhaps Fred will have more information.
Believe Edward Bolton also produced the same design - although their pieces obviously wouldn't have had the Greener trade mark.
Have you tried the Board's Glass Gallery - Fred's compilation of pressed designs with known makers?
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Hi Paul,
Thanks for the information. Data on Angus & Greener and Henry Greener is fairly sparse on the net, so it's always good to be given more. One of the first places I look these days are the GMB galleries, top resource for pressed glass collectors, no luck with this one though.
Kind regards
Nick
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http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/markd-h.htm
gives dates for the two versions of the Greener lion trademark as:
1st lion TM (with lion holding a star in upper paw) – Henry Greener 1875- c 1885;
2nd lion TM (with lion holding halberd in upper paw) – Greener & Co. c 1885 – 1900.
I presume that the transition from 1st TM to 2nd TM happened when Henry Greener became Greener & Co.
So, Nick, I think it safe to assume that your sugar bowl was manufactured sometime between 1885 and 1900.
I’ve checked through my reference photos of unregistered Henry Greener & Greener & Co. designs (all with 1st or 2nd versions of the lion trademark) and have found several examples decorated with the ‘daisy and button/hobnail’ pattern (all with the 2nd lion TM, but without RD numbers) , including a clear glass creamer to match Nick’s sugar bowl (see attached photo - © 40mb), oval dishes in amber and blue glass, and a nappy or handled sweetmeat dish in blue glass (photo © leroybe51). This is the first time that I have seen a sugar bowl in this pattern, though.
I notice that the advert from the Pottery Gazette shown on page 82 of 'Lattimore' shows the items with this 'daisy and button/hobnail all having the pattern number 2006 (including the nappy or sweetmeat dish).
Fred.
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Nick
Your sugar appears in an illustrated advertisement of "New Designs" from Greener & Co in April 1887 as part of the No. 2006 pattern.
Sid
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Here's another variant with ribs http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1911
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In
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54290.msg307828.html#msg307828
the Greener & Co. pattern #2006 is attributed as being registered design number 71736 of 9 April 1887 (which corresponds pretty well with the Pottery Gazette Golden Jubilee advert of 1st April 1887).
Jenny Thompson (page 15) describes this design as ‘design for the ornamentation of glass’ but does not actually illustrate it, and all of the examples that I have seen of this pattern have the 2nd Greener trademark but none have a registered design number.
The definitive answer would be to compare the design representation from RD 71736 with the #2006 ‘daisy & button/hobnail pattern.
Fred.
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Thank you Fred, Sid and Christine for all your help, it's much appreciated. Fred, as with any of my photo's on here, please feel free to use them if needed.
Kind Regards
Nick
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sorry to say that presently I don't have any pix of 71736
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Hi Paul,
Is it possible you could put it on your list for when you next visit Kew?
Kind regards
Nick
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Thank you, Nick, for your kind permission.
Fred.
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will do Nick.
It's late in the evening and I may be missing vital clues here, but am wondering how Margaret knew that Greener & Co. pattern 2006 corresponded with Rd. 71736 - if you read Fred's link there isn't an explanation from Margaret for the source of this information. Presumably somewhere Margaret found a cross reference linking pattern 2006 with Rd. 71736 - will someone kindly tell me the location :)
Is the Greener ad. for 'New Designs', that Sid refers to, the same as the Pottery Gaz. ad that is mentioned elsewhere in this thread - if not then might the Rd. No. appear in the ad. that Sid refers to?
If Margaret is correct, then no doubt the Kew image will show only a salt - as this will have been the shape on which this design was Registered.
But that should be adequate for our purposes.
or am I missing the point entirely ;D
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the answer, I think, must be that Margaret was making an assumption ............ the only Greener & Co. Registration during the first nine months of 1887 was 71736 - there isn't another until mid September that year.
Quite logical really, and I suspect correct........... top of the class Margaret.
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Christine
Your handled dish is shown in the 1887 advertisement as the Shell Sweet in the No. 2007 pattern.
Sid
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Thanks Sid :)
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Sid,
Is the advert from 1887 you refer to, the same one that Paul refers to earlier in the topic as being 'designs for the 'Golden Jubilee' shown in 'Lattimore''? If not, is there another source available?
Kind regards
Nick
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pix attached showing the original photographic image submitted to the Board of Trade for Greener & Co. Rd. 71736 dated 09.04.1887, and possibly one of the most difficult to photograph.
Victorian sepia photographs have a reflective surface and over the years seem to have faded and lost definition and contrast, so apologies for the poor reproduction here - hope the effort was worthwhile and trust of some use.
Will leave it to others to comment as to whether this accurately represents the daisy and button/hobnail design as shown on Nick's sugar posted here, and the Pottery Gazette ad. referred to earlier in this thread, which shows items from the factory pattern No. 2006, designed for the Golden Jubilee.
Leaves me confused still as to Margaret's comment that this Registration referred to a salt - not seen in this picture, which appears to show only a photograph of a drawing of the design, rather than showing a specific item.
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Nick
Greener had a six page advertisement supplement in the April 1887 edition of the Pottery Gazette of which Lattimore only shows one page. Issues of the Pottery Gazette and successor journals have been digitized and are available through several on line subscription services (paid services).
Sid
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Paul
The post of registered design 71736 is helpful. Clearly it is not related to the daisy & button design we are discussing here.
Sid
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Sid,
Thanks for that information on Pottery Gazzette adverts, I've seen lots of references to various companies P.G. ads so I'll have to explore subscription to one of the services.
Kind Regards
Nick
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Paul,
I agree with Sid, your pictures clearly show that Rd 71736 isn't the same pattern as the daisy & button on my sugar.
Thanks once again for all your help, as always it's very appreciated.
Kind regards
Nick
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It does appear that there is a difference between the Kew image and the Daisy and Button design from the Pott. Gaz. and Nick's sugar.
Like Margaret, I'd thought that common sense was indicating that the proximity of the date of Registration for 71736 to the Pott. Gaz. advert (which matches this sugar), was a strong indication that they were one and the same design - but it seems not.
During the year in question, there were two other Henry Greener Registrations - 81160 on 15th Sept., and 88120 on the 26th Nov. ........... do we know what they looked like?? Am certain I don't presently have pix of either.
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RD 81160 of 15 September 1887
Jenny Thompson gives description as ‘pattern of tableglass’. I don’t appear to have a reference photo of any item from the design.
RD 88120 of 26 November
Jenny Thompson gives description as ‘pattern and shape of a dish (centenary)’. The centenary in question was Australia’s Centenary 1788-1888, and various pieces of the commemorative ware in the design have been shown and discussed at
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55943.msg317065.html#msg317065
Fred.
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thanks Fred ............ so, it's possible then that the daisy & button was never Registered, or outside chance it might be 81160 - I will know the answer when next I visit the Archives.