Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: bat20 on May 27, 2015, 06:47:27 PM
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Hi all,I found these two jars over the weekend ,about 6" ht,they are slightly different from each other with polished pontils,but exactly the same size rim maybe made for a cork? Anyone know what they were made for,thanks.
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More likely a drop over metal or glass lid. Victorian anyway
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Thanks Christine,i think they must have been in a shed for most of their life,they had hardened dust on them and have hardly been used,I did ask the seller if there was a lid with them,but sadly no.
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This pteridomania style stretched on into the 1930's I have three Victorian looking etched and engraved pieces dated 1910 1922 and 1936 the style is a rough guide not a dead cert.
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These have the grey colour Chris and I get the feeling screw tops might have replaced these,but I don't bet on anything in the glass world,out of interest are your later ones brighter glass.
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No for some reason 30's blown glass is real grey, I think screw tops date back well into the 19 century, 1850's. I tried a while ago to date glass by collecting dated pieces be it rd marks coins in stems lozenge marks or engraved dates and depending on who made the glass which area and the mixes involved has a big effect on the colour, I picked up some fininish shot glasses very grey I n colour fern etched that date to the 60's, after 247 dated things the clearest old glass I have found is the Stourbridge glass from the 1860's, but my tiny collection is nothing to the thousands of millions made.
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Interesting stuff Chris,which makes me even more intrigued to what they were for.
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I did wonder if there was some connection with the world of leeches, but they're much larger than the usual leech containers we see here so presumably not. Perhaps the covering was in the form of a waxed paper held on with string - I'm having trouble imagining a tin lid.
Of course, if they've never been used then that's a hindrance - use often leaves traces of wear and helps sometimes to understand intended purpose. You would think that if cork bungs had been used then some trace of wear on the inner part of the neck would be visible.
I've been through two volumes of S. & F., but doesn't seem to have helped.
Chris - is it possible to see some pix of your C20 pteridomania pieces, please - no hurry. :)
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Yes will put some on in due course, I'm pretty sure two have not been packed away, I'm wary of putting too many pics of things on here for fear of getting on everyone's nerves, I've found some lovely things recently most I can I d myself, my long suffering wife has set me a limit of 500 things in the house at any one time, my glass collection is always changing, when I hit 500 I have a clear out and store what I pack away.
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Have to agree the lack of wear in this case is annoying Paul,I'm sure if they were well used there'd be a clue or two.Don't worry about getting on people's nerves Chris I think I've driven most of them on to Prozac already. :D
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https://www.pinterest.com/pin/462885667926708648/ ....they do look like leech jars....very nice whatever they were for. :D
[Mod: Link now works - disconnected from following text]
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for some reason I'm unable to open your link at the moment Angela - will try again in a while.
I have several of what I assume are leech containers, with pteridomania decoration, but they are smaller than bats ........... the largest of mine is something like 90 mm tall and all three sit on a short stem, and all have very pronounced folded back rim (so the string doesn't fall off and release the leeches I suppose).
From memory Julie used to be very good at these these . Perhaps there are some giant leeches out there somewhere ;D
Edited to add some comments from Fred a while back................... ;D
""We kept our leeches in a little water in plain cylindrical stoppered glass jars (anything up to a 100 leeches in a 5 litre jar) and they were fed on chunks of liver and clotted blood. They were notoriously good escapologists, quite capable of pushing the stoppers out of the jars, and we used to tie muslin tightly round the tops of the jars to try and keep them contained. It was not unusual to come into the laboratory in a morning to find large, juicy, escaped leeches attached to just about any surface.""
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Could these just be honey pots with material lids and a string wrap to keep insects away, I saw some honey pots in an Egyptian museum I think thousands of years old with preserved honey in it takes a fair while to go out of date ? Anything Victorian with a turned over rim gets a leech installed in it for some reason, how long could a leech survive in stagnant water I wonder?, would a doctor want a worn out leech to practice with or a big fat healthy one living in good conditions. 5 litres sounds a good sized jar.
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My first thought when I saw these was they had a metal lid of some description.
As Paul quotes Fred, leeches are very good at escaping so I don't think something without a flat rim to tie on a covering or another type of secure lid would be for leeches.
Paul, I think you have some of these leech pots with fern engraving as well.
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I sold a jar with matching lid recently, both rims cold cut and loose fitting I guessed for sweets as there would not have been a reason for a tight fitting rim to prevent evaporation but it could of had a cork liner as mentioned by the op, here is the eBay item number as I can not copy and paste the link at the mo. 151654991682, it can put into the search bar on baby both were glass not metal, having dug Victorian tips as a kid there were not many metal lids from memory.
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thanks for replying Julie, and yes I do have some very similar to yours - you must come up and see my leech jars some time ;)
I seem to remember we had lots of discussions about these things a while back, and I assume Victorian examples were of more or less a standard size like yours, with the stem, foot and folded back rim, and often with this pteridomania decor - which is possibly why I thought of leeches. Fred was obviously discussing a more commercial aspect of leeches but I think the rim profile on these jars is likely wrong for these to be for leeches.
the mention of muslin - tied with string etc. - was one method of sealing jars when used for preserves, jam, honey etc.
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Is there any documented evidence Victorian dated these bowls on stems are leech jars?
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Chris, what they wanted was a hungry leech which would suck the blood, I don't think they cared about healthy. And they were lucky to have any. All the leeches were collected in Great Britain and then in France and they had to keep moving east through Europe to find any as Elisabeth Bennion wrote in Antique Medical Instruments, [In the 18th and 19th centuries, due to the] "proliferation of complaints for which leeching was part of a cure" chemists sold leeches.
Medicine wasn't very advanced (surgeons didn't even wash their hands!) but ordinary people could buy a leech at their local chemist. What were they going to bring it home in and keep it once they got there?
I think sometimes we forgot how basic things were in the 19th century. In the early part you were lucky to get any clean water, without cholera, etc. I don't think you'd worry about stagnant water for the leeches. Also animals were seen as a resource. For example, horses were required for work, anyone thinking about their welfare would not have been taken seriously.
Is anything with a flat rim for leeches? I don't know. I bought something on holiday recently which I'm wondering about. Will take a pic and post it. I saw an episode of Antiques Road Trip recently and tried to go to the shops they went to (Wickham, Portsmouth, Emsworth) and one of them had this intriguing item.
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I have kept, frogs, newts tadpoles sticklebacks and I have leeches in my pond, they do not survive well in tanks let alone small pots, Victorians were not stupid they would not sell something unless it could be used, after studying art and design for 5 years why would anyone put something in a stemmed jar to place on themselves, the water, dirt would go all over the clothes, In the Victorian era you would of had to have money to own a leech as most poor people of the Victorian era worked just to eat, I'm sure puting a leech on their skin was not on the menu but I'm no historian, in order to put a leech on the skin a small pot with a good seal and a good hand grip would have done the job not a stem with a circular base like a wine glass it makes no sense from a design point of view, a big jar in the shop you picked one up from would make sense so they could survive ? I'm hoping Paul has good documented evidence on the correct shape and short storage devises used in the Victorian era a large jar and a small pot would make sense or a large aquatic tank to reuse the leeches once full, to store and reuse.
In my opinion the Victorians were well advanced in design, not backward.
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You would take the leech out of the pot to use it. Some of the leech pots have scratches inside from either a ring of the person getting it out or a metal implement (spoon?). There are wooden spoons with long handles as well that were used.
The glass that you would put on the skin is for cupping, a different therapy altogether.
Victorians were nothing if not aspirational, the middle class anyway. They wanted things that looked nice in their home. If you have to have a leech, keep it in a nice looking pot!
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Would Victorians want to advertise they were ill, I don't think so.
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they might not, but sickness and disease was something they lived with on a daily basis, and they all knew they were in the same boat - in 2015 we are so far removed from the way they had to live that it's hard to believe we're not talking about the medieval period. Home remedies, leeches, cupping, herbal concoctions, consumption, rampant child mortality - they had the lot, and when your back is against the wall you'll try anything.
But on the plus side look how great we were in adversity, and now look how the mighty have fallen.
I think we shall have to give up on these ;)
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Not so far Paul if antibiotics fail and they are at a dramatically alarming rate we all might have the use for Leeches again.
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I could not find the Pteridomania dated pieces, they must be packed away but here is another dated 1931, a water jug.
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well, you live and learn as they say...... nice jug - bet a pair would look nice ;)
not beyond the bounds of possibility that - subsequent to manufacture - a later date might be added in celebration of some event - thus giving the appearance that the date we see was the date of manufacture - the opposite in fact of something deliberately fraudulent, where the intention is to deceive by providing a date earlier than when the piece was made.
I think the former variety happened with tumblers/drinking glasses etc. for Christenings and marriages and the like, and I notice that there is an inscription on this jug, which appears to be celebrating some event which presumably occurred in 1931 - or maybe the anniversary of some event was that year.
Could be wrong, but I don't feel entirely happy going with the idea that this jug was made in that year. Chris, what is the full wording, please.
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It's a 30's jug, no pontil little wear, looks like a celerbration of some sorts maybe a marriage, Mr and Mr's, here are the late 1870 80 90's dated one i keep to have a drop out of. My new display cabinet has William Morris wall paper stuck to the back of it and the cupboard is 1870's in date, the front room wall paper (not my choice) has a similar design, it's all been recycled over the years.
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Your 1930s jug is pretty but more wedding bouquet than pteridomania I feel