Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: SurreyLou on July 25, 2015, 04:22:19 PM
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Hi can anyone help identify this fragment of glass found in my garden. There has been a house on this site since the 1600's
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Hi ,
and welcome to the G M B ,I think you have the base to an early wine bottle , the cup section is the underneath of the bottle and the bump would be inside the bottle , ,it could be late 17th c or 18th c or later, it's hard to tell with so little left.
cheers ,
Peter.
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Hi thanks for your reply. The glass is very thick and heavy - would it be worth putting a UV light on it do you think? I know there was a glass maker in the Surrey sessex Wealden area from the 1600's so glass should have been around the area especially as Dorking is an old market town.
I was a bit thrown by the pontil mark being inside the bottle is that right ?
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Hi ,
I dont think a uv will tell you anything helpful , I suspect the inside layer of the base of the bottle has been worn away showing the wide pontil mark underneath,there may be others here with more knowledge of bottles who might have some more accurate info.
cheers ,
Peter.
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Hi - welcome to the GMB.
My suggestion for a date on your bottle base would be that this is unlikely to be any earlier than c. 1720, which was around the time of the change from the earlier 'onion' shape to the more common straight sided shape which has remained more or less unchanged until now. I'm not suggesting your is from that date - it might, as Peter has suggested, be later and could even be C19.
If you look at the onion bottle shape, you'll see that the body was very bulbous, creating a curved profile that starts at the base and flares outward - not at all like the later bottles. In these earlier examples there is a noticeable gap - internally - between the kick and the curved side of the bottle - this is not apparent on yours, which suggests this one was made as a straight sided bottle, and thus not earlier than the date I've mentioned.
This would mean yours was certainly made after the demise of the Sussex/Surrey Wealden glass industry you mention, which, according to the books, appears to have died out around c.1620 - mostly it seems because Mansell was championing the government's outlawing of the use of wood as a fuel for the furnaces - he had an axe to grind since coal was, for him in London more easily available anyway. According to Kenyon, the Sussex/Surrey workers were decimating the forests at a rate of knots, and the wood cutters could barely keep up with the volume of wood required.
Plus - the mostly French emigrees who started this south of England industry were concerned mainly with window glass and smaller utility items and bottles - certainly not the thick walled large bottles such as yours.
As for the colour - the vast majority of glass for bottle making had always been some shade of dark green due to the iron impurities in the sand - this remnant looks almost brownish, but I suspect that might be caused by surface sickness and think I can see the green in some of the crevices.
regret I can't explain the circular almost 'post-formed' mark on what would have been the inside of the kick. Generally, kicks serve more than one purpose - and I wonder if in this instance it was just for strengthening the bottom of the bottle rather than hiding the pontil scar - I can't see any scar within the depression. Certainly the earlier onion bottles were made in two parts, and the kick hid the scar created when the worker attached the body to his pontil rod in order to fit the neck - but just not sure with the later straight sided bottles. :-\
On the assumption that your piece of glass won't contain uranium ;) - you don't explain reasons for your suggestion of using a u.v. torch.
Might you be thinking of this providing some indication of the presence of either potash-lead glass or soda glass? Not my area at all, but would not have thought this piece would contain any lead, manganese or other decolourants - but then perhaps you had something else in mind.
Glass, if nothing else, travels.............. and when whole your bottle may have originated from somewhere very distant from Dorking - of course it might have come from Chateau Denbie ;D ;)
References: 'English and Irish Glass' - Geoffrey Wills
'The Glass Industry of the Weald' - G. H. Kenyon
'English Table Glass' - E. M. Elville
'Coloured Glass' - Derek C. Davis and Keith Middlemas
'The Encyclopedia of Glass' - Edited by Phoebe Phillips
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Hi Thank you so much for the information all very interesting and relevant.
The bottle is definitely green
Would you have any information regarding the multicoloured petrol type affect on the surface
I attach a couple more photos that highlight these 2 factors better.
?
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See here
https://ancientglass.wordpress.com/2014/05/19/what-is-the-iridescence-on-ancient-glass/
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Aha very interesting thanks I think from your article we can assume "Natural iridescence is sometimes found on modern glass bottles from digs in the back yards of old houses or pulled out of river beds. " explains what I have here.
L
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It took me quite a while to track dowm my own old bottle with some natural irridesence on it, I'd been after a bit for ages. I eventually found a fairly common torpedo-shaped lemonade bottle in a charity shop, I was delighted, but it's not nearly as exciting as having dug your own up and it being a superior sort of bottle to mine, even if there is less of it. :)
You'll see it on old Roman glass in museums.
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Hi ,
Some nice iridescence on this Roman piece,
cheers ,
Peter.
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not sure of the soil type in 'your garden' - I know that both dry chalk and wet acid types are common throughout that part of surrey - the latter I'm sure would degrade buried glass quicker than chalky areas. In years gone by I've dug out some non-wine bottles from dumps in the vicinity and soil type and water table do seem to make a difference to how the glass survives.
Looking at the condition of your piece, my opinion is that it's not that modern, although mechanically made bottles with substantial kicks are still made I believe.
As you'll probably know, there is a small museum just off the western end of Dorking high street, where presumably they have some knowledge of local history and probably artefacts too - could be worth popping in for a chat and possible information on local glass works or bottling plants.
I've visited some of the C16 glass making sites mentioned in Kenyon's book - it's a very interesting volume and some of the places mentioned are not that far from you, and small pieces with beautiful iridescence can still be found on the surface.
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Thank you for your thoughts. The ground here is quite sandy and we live on the edge of a wood.
I will take a trip to the museum and see if I can find out more - the museum had an upgrade recently and is a great resouce for the town.
Regards
Lou
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The Roman glass Pete is a real beauty, similar to rust on the surface, love the colours.