Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Ivo on August 02, 2015, 10:53:51 AM
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Any opinions on this ruby (etched iside and out) chalice? It has white enamel decoration with gold, remnants of gilding on the rim both top and sides. It weighs a ton and has some wear.
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Love it,must be from the mid 19th century I would guess and bohemian?.
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That was my thought as well.
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If there are only remnants of the gilding on the rim and sides, perhaps it once had a top part?
It may have been the culprit in removing the gilding. It does look as if a lid would "complete" it, although it doesn't seem imcomplete on its own. ???
It does not look new, it does say Bohemian to me.
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I have never seen gilded rims and sides on pieces with a lid? It would not be logical I think...
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I have in my sticky mitts an enamelled, satinated and gilded powder bowl, with lid. Probably Bohemian. The top surface of the rim of the bottom part is gilded.
I agree it's odd and doesn't make sense, but it does happen. ;D
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Curious. This rim is on a thickwalled piece, the rim is identical to Ranftbecher - none of which have llids. Will check some lidded pieces when I get back to the other place ☺
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the word goblet implies a drinking vessel, but the rim looks ungainly and unsuitable for drinking and for putting in the mouth - decorative only perhaps? Looking at some of the goblets from middle third of C19, it does seem that lids were not uncommon, but you would know better in this case.
What's the difference between a goblet and a chalice - perhaps simply that the latter is used in a religious sense and only for rituals and then rarely.
What height is this Ivo - assume you mean that the colour is etched inside and out. Some gilding can wear very quickly but don't get the feeling that even if it did have a lid this would have been the cause of the loss of gilding.
It's a striking feature of beakers, chalices and goblets from Bohemia that so many of them had this style of recessed rim - which looks uncomfortable to drink from - below the rim, this one appears exceptionally thick walled and angular, but can't imagine that it would have come from anywhere else.
Very attractive by the way.
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In Das Bohmische Glas Band II page 175, there is a Karaffe in a similar colour with enamel and gilded painting in a similar style. The karaffe is cut and gilded. There is also a jug on page 174, blown glass not cut at all, in a 'normal footed jug style' (can't think how else to described the shape)with a plain foot. It too is ruby glass and has that white enamel and gilded decoration.
These come under the section titled Friedrich Egermanns Rubinatze und rubinierte Glaser.
They are not attributed to Egermann though. They are both dated c. 1845- 1850 and attributed as 'Umgebung von Haida' (Near Haida).
I think the shape, cutting, foot and stem as well as the colour and decoration of your goblet is right for the 1840's from the clues in the books. I agree I don't think it would have had a lid. I'm not sure these pieces were for using? I suspect many of them were decorative because they were expensive to produce.
Out of interest:
Harrach did do that colour (or similar)- in From Neuwelt to the Whole World they show:
Page 93 a cut beaker 'after 1830
Page 100 a panel cut jug dated 'before 1835'
however nowhere in that book could I find anything with this white enamel gilded decoration in that style. (and I have looked for this type of enamel decoration many times before :) ) And I've not seen it attributed to Harrach anywhere in my other books either.
Also in Das Bohmische Glas Band II page 83 they show plate II.98 a becher in a similar red glass to yours id'd as Neuwelt 1835-1840 along with a couple of other pieces in the same red glass same dating.
I've seen that enamelling also on alabaster pieces (I know Keith has one such piece in blue).
Dredging my memory I seem to think that the style of the enamelling became a little more 'sophisticated' a bit later , although still the gilding on white, but at a slightly later date - so for example there is a turquoise blue alabaster tray on page 145 of Das Bohmische Glas Band 111 (Historismus) dated c. 1855 attributed 'Vermutlich Bohmerwald'. I can't really explain it very well but just the style of it is more sophisticated to my eye, the patterning is more closely done, more a definite pattern using a lot of the glass space, whereas my recall of what I think are earlier pieces with that enamelling, are of the enamelling a little more random or a little more spaced out on the glass. So I think I've seen it on earlier alabaster pieces where it is more random patterns and smaller 'scattered' designs.
So my instinct would say the spacing on yours fits with the ones in the book of 1845-50.
Pieces with that enamelling are around but there are not that many, especially in the books, and I don't recall seeing any with a specific
maker/decorator identified at all.
Modified:
I've just managed to find the one piece that I thought of re name (Vermutlich Adolfhutte bei Winterberg) - it's on page 144 of DBM Band II - Blue glass lidded pokal with that gilded white enamel decoration on it -dated 1845-1850.
and I have found an alabaster becher in DMB band II page 91 that has a more random decoration, is id'd as Neuwelt and 1842.
So I guess it is possible that Neuwelt could be a possibility for your becher perhaps - they did the red glass and that style of enamelling. I think the date of 1840's is right.
Is it at all possible to put up pictures of the base of the foot please? and also a close up picture of the gilded enamelling
m
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With reference my long post above
http://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/gross/biedermeierbecher-alabastabl1.htm
just in case that link doesn't work this is the page
http://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/glas/glas-19-farbglas.htm#objekt3
That is the gilded white enamel on alabaster and
that piece is dated c.1840
However this one is inscribed on the base and actually dated 1851
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166363_alabaster-becher-boehmen-glass-beaker-bohemia
and this is a good example of something similar to the tray I referred to above - this one dated c.1855
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166363_alabaster-becher-boehmen-glass-beaker-bohemia
the pieces I was referring to with a more random spaced out effect of the enamelling were perfume bottles in alabaster I think (maybe Adolfshutte or Annathal) but perhaps they weren't as early as I thought though.
Ah, this is an example of randomness - c. 1840
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166322_alabaster-becher-glass-beaker-bohemia
m
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M. I missed you - seriously!
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Hi Ivo :)
the one I referred to earlier as
'and this is a good example of something similar to the tray I referred to above - this one dated c.1855'
is this one below as I put the wrong link
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166403_deckeldose-boehmen-covered-glass-bowl-bohemia
I miss my glass and you all, but life is just so much in the way at the moment that I literally have no time at all to do any glass :'(
I had a couple of hours this morning for the first time in many months, got to page 2 on search and saw your post on the goblet so got the books out.
By lunchtime my window of opportunity had gone (hence my many 'modifies' to my post ;D because of constant interruptions).
Lovely goblet btw. Will check back to see if you post any pics of the enamel and base ;D
I've just bought one this morning but suspect it will be a lot younger than yours. Still pretty though I hope (vv bad photo)
m
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We've all missed you :-*
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thank you :-*
I have another few months of having to focus completely on sorting things out for my youngest, but I hope by December it will all be as planned and life will get back to some semblance of normal.
I've bought one piece this morning, the first in many months. I'm looking forward to seeing a new piece of glass regardless of whether it was a mistake or not - the picture was terrible to be honest ;D
I've managed a tiny bit of research but that's it. Nothing else. I just don't have a long enough space of time to do anything at the moment so I've have to abandon all hope.
Hope you are all keeping well though :)
quick find here - forgot to look at this lovely site
Ruby tazza - the enamelling is not quite the same but dates from a similar period anyway, the cutting and foot and colour have similarities as well as the gilded outlines:
this one is dated c. 1840
http://www.glaswolf.de/Biedermeier_Tazza.287+B6YmFja1BJRD0yODcmcHJvZHVjdElEPTI0MjMmcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9Mjg3JmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
m
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Some detail photographs.
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:-* Lovely pictures and thanks for uploading them. I'm envious, it's very pretty :) Great find.
m
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found it in Edinburgh and it set me back 15 ukps....
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A great find :)
m
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c.1840 found in one of the Czech museums online database
http://ces.mkcr.cz/en/img/6/5/7/p59649.jpg
I'll translate their description and add in a mo
'S 24 Talířek rubínově lazurovaný. Kolem 1840. Starý fond'
translated as:
'Saucer ruby lacquered . Around 1840. The old fund'
and this decanter also c.1840 from the same Museum
http://ces.mkcr.cz/en/img/6/5/7/p59655.jpg
(Bottle of ruby of glazed glass. Around 1840. The old fund)
I guess from the way it is described that it is cased ruby glass over clear.
Sbírka Oblastního muzea v Chomutově (Collection of Regional Museum in Chomutov)
m