Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on August 14, 2015, 01:41:31 PM
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After I posted another topic about a blue overlay jug in what I think is the same pattern, my goblet arrived.
I've posted three sets of photos.
It's old, but how old is the question. Bubbles and tiny specks in the glass.
The bowl is 3 1/8" diameter at the rim and the foot is wider at 3 3/8"
The rim is very thick, cut and bevelled on both sides.
The foot is even thicker also cut and bevelled. The ruby overlay on the foot is cut in petal but the overlay is on the base of the foot not on top of the foot.
It's immaculately made so that you cannot see the join between bowl and stem or between stem and foot. It looks as though it was made entirely from one piece of glass.
The overlay pattern where the base of the bowl joins the foot is horseshoe shaped pattern, but doesn't show in the pieces because of reflections and the glass is so thick the paper wouldn't sit down any further in the bowl
It's a heavy piece.
Terrible photo, so I'm very happy with what's arrived. But would love to know where it was made :)
I've already done quite a lot of searching on Sandwich overlay glass as I thought it might be American (could only see a view from the top so had to guess the stem and pattern lol).
Please, any help much appreciated :)
Sorry for so many photos
m
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more pics
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I don't think it's my imagination, my goblet appears to fit stylistically and colour wise with the stoppered decanter jug/vinaigrette? in the middle of this trio in the Sandwich Glass museum. It is labelled as c.18--
http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sandwich-19-a.jpg
that picture comes from this site
http://www.peachridgeglass.com/2014/06/my-visit-to-the-sandwich-glass-museum/
m
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The cut is a match with this one too: http://rgantiques.com/Cobalt_Overlay_Pitcher.html
I see from the other thread you have already spotted this!
John
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:)
yes and this one was listed on the auction site as Boston and Sandwich 3rd quarter 19th century.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marvelous-19th-C-Boston-Sandwich-Cut-Overlay-Glass-Pitcher-w-Ribbon-Handle-/231086504120?nma=true&si=P36r%252FDpjRgtzlkNhNBSsqD5mrmQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
It appears to have some executional and stylistic similarities particularly in the handle.
However, the blue is listed as 'possibly Sandwich' and the white, whilst listed as Boston and Sandwich for $595 and removed as 'this listing has ended as the item is no longer available', is also an auction site listing and has no primary source reference.
I hope someone with great knowledge of Sandwich glass comes along ;D
Nice to talk again.
m
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ah,have found a base shot of this cologne showing the foot.
It is cut in the same way as my goblet right the way across but it also has a star cut in the middle of the full width cuts.
http://www.historicalglass.com/node/3490
described in the auction as:
CUT OVERLAY TALL COLONGE; EX BARLOW
'Lot Number: 37
11 3/8” h., Blue and clear, lead glass, elongated, slender, conical shape neck design, flaring out into a drawn circular base or central body, covered with circles in a cut overlay motif, reinforced with a cut ring around the neck, the lip is cut to a six point, star cut base; Sandwich Glass Works, Sandwich, Mass., c.1850, sparkling mint condition. Pictured on page 131, no. 3146, The Glass Industry in Sandwich by Barlow & Kaiser This cologne is usually found in amethyst and ruby, (pictured in amethyst) and is extremely rare in blue; ex. Saxe coll.'
http://www.historicalglass.com/taxonomy/term/12?page=1
Feeling even more hopeful now :)
m
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The star cut on my goblet can be seen on two of the perfume bottles here.
http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sandwich-28-a.jpg
and I think it has some similarities with this as well
http://journalofantiques.com/2013/features/rarities-from-the-new-bedford-museum-of-glass/attachment/2000-082-lloyd-clean/
if you scroll down the page there is information on this goblet here
http://journalofantiques.com/2013/features/rarities-from-the-new-bedford-museum-of-glass/
And as I said before it seems to match in colour and some of the stylistic devices, with the stoppered jug/vinaigrette piece in this photo.
http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sandwich-19-a.jpg
It appears from that photo above from the museum, that there were two colours used, a brighter red/ruby and the softer cranberry colour of mine which seems to match the vinaigrette.
I feel I'm on the right track so have sent an email to the Sandwich Glass Museum curator asking for help. I hope they do get back to me :)
m
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Found this listed as 'probably Richardson's' in Broadfield House collection, cited as from 'The Brierley Hill collection'.
http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/getrecord/DMUSE_BH154/
Think it is possibly a Boston and Sandwich Glass cologne instead.
see here for what I think are the same overlay decanter or colognes
http://www.peachridgeglass.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Sandwich-29-a.jpg
http://www.peachridgeglass.com/2014/06/my-visit-to-the-sandwich-glass-museum/
m
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There is an interesting piece in the Corning
Louis Vaupel New England Glass company engraved goblet.
The stem is the other way up to mine but it's ruby over clear and the stem has similar proportions to mine i.e. quite broad on the goblet.
Says it is 1875-1880
http://www.cutglass.org/articles/art142.htm
Kristi put a photo up on here of the real thing.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?album=621&pos=30
I think I'm in the right part of the world.
I can find nothing remotely similar under Bohemian and it doesn't feel right for that to me. That transparent ruby over clear would be much earlier time period in Bohemian glass and the foot/stem etc doesn't feel right
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Sorry I do not have much to contribute to this discussion but I would say it is cranberry rather than ruby - which I have never seen in Bohemian overlay glass.
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Sorry for the delay in replying Ivo and thank you. I did quite a bit of searching in the meantime, just to double double check as I felt the same as you, and believe you are right.
I've found a good few Bohemian bechers that are described as 'rubinglas' and show as pink rather than red on screen, but they are completely pink interiors with a clear overlay on top, not pink overlay on top. And no cutting like this at all on any I can find.
I know I dig myself into corners frequently, but I am convinced this is American and I think it's probably 1850-60 ish. The blue jug I put on another post, (listed by antique seller as possibly Sandwich http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,60735.msg342549.html#msg342549 and here http://rgantiques.com/Cobalt_Overlay_Pitcher.html
has good and obvious similarities with my goblet, but there are teeny differences - in that the ovals are slightly pointy top and bottom on the jug and the horse shoe shaped design ( where the bottom of the bowl meets the foot on mine), is all pointy ovals rather than upside down horseshoe design as mine is. It's definitely the same design though.
Edited to add - Actually looking at mine again, I think they are pointy on mine as well. It's just that the pink photographs particularly badly compared to blue and looks blurry, whereas the blue photographs very crisply and shows all the definition well. So perhaps not the differences I noted to be honest.
I cannot believe this is Bohemian because of the colour/style of overlay and design, and the way the foot is applied and has the colour overlay on the base of the foot and then cut. And I don't think the jug is either.
I equally don't believe it is French or English because of the indented rim (aware Baccarat did use this rim on some goblets but still don't believe it is French)and the design. And again I don't think the jug is either.
(Watch me turn out to be wrong now :D )
Am pretty convinced it is American but just to work out whether it is Sandwich or Mount Washington or New England Glass Company really.
I've had discussions and have sent emails and had some help which I'm trying to pin together into some evidence. I have found one piece that has really good similarities but can't pull it all together yet. If I find anything to clarify or hear anything more I'll post.
Any more help very gratefully received :)
m
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Just to correct my post above
The pink colour I have seen described is 'rosalinfarbenem Unterfang'. Unterfang meaning it is underlayed and in the case of this one and the others I've seen, cased over with clear.
This is an example. I've not seen any that have the pink as an overlay and cut to clear.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5746352_pokal-josephinenhuette-glass-goblet-hunter-antique
and here is another described as 'Rosafarben'
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5746353_fussbecher-harrach-glass-beaker-dated-1842-antique
m
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Oh I did find this one here - I'd forgotten I'd found it.
Interesting, it is the pink over clear. I've a feeling I've seen one other, very simple thin line design, a bit earlier I thought.
mid 19th Rubinierter Überfang stein - Lot 1011
http://www.zeller.de/index.php?id=348&backPID=348&scatIDs=21&auktion_suche=1&search_pid=348&begin_at=100
I still believe my goblet is not Bohemian though.
m
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With ref the transparent 'rosalin' coloured glass overlaid and cut over clear and my comment about thinking it would date much earlier, I have found a decanter and goblets in the Harrach Book:
page 98
Described as
'Rosaline Glass, cut
Execution: after 1840'
and then goes on to show a drawing of decanter and glasses stating, 'entry from invoice book (SOA Zamrsk, HSNS, Kniha K 1152, Facturen Buch 1840-1841 p.214)
So if it were Bohemian the technique could date back to 1840/41.
However,no evidence I could find in any of my books for the stem and pattern or foot as being Bohemian.
m
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Link to cameo egg in same design
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,61299.msg345927.html#msg345927
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I'm delighted to find my goblet is so unique that no one has any opinion on it nor seen anything like it elsewhere ;D
For what it's worth, the stem is faceted in eight facets and join the foot without a merese. I have seen a similar stem on a Bakewell Pears?( I think it was Bakewell 'Pears') Champagne goblet - similar but not the same as it was 6 facets I think and the shape was slightly different. But the bowl and foot were different.
But in terms of shape that is the only thing I've seen that has any similarity at all. And I've done a lot of hunting (as in, have looked at every single goblet listed in the Corning, along with hundreds of Dr Fischer auctions etc)
In terms of pattern or 'decor' there is that jug, my egg, ... and the two vase shapes produced at Gus Khrustalny, one in the brown of my egg and the other in the blue of the jug.
Other than that,nothing that I can find.
So no one on here has seen anything remotely like this at all? Not even the elements on their own? like the petal foot, or the fat 8 facet stem? or the pattern on the bowl?
If you have, I'd be very grateful if you could share with me ;D
m
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the jug link to the blue overlay jug no longer works and goes straight to a 404 message not found - but I found this here (I think the same jug) being sold as Bohemian c.1900 - just providing a link as I think it's the same jug.
http://guinevere.co.uk/product/accessories/bohemian-flash-cut-jug/
m
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Found this!
https://youtu.be/roWkB6tylPQ?t=114
Unfortunately the video plays on when linked, but the egg is at 1.54 of the video.
caption says
'Vintage Easter egg made of glass and crystal on display in Gus-Crystal'
m
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Lovely little film!
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yes :) ( wish I could speak Russian.)
Very happy with that find,comparing my goblet in real life to the egg. I'm 99.99% sure my goblet is Gus Khrustalny now.
On the orange egg, I've done a comparison and no longer think it is Ajka - similar design idea but differently executed and having found two of theirs in the similar design where you can immediately see they are the same house, I think it is not.
Have found pictures of nearly the whole collection at Gus K and there is a shot of an orange cut to clear jug and becher/beaker. And they did the engraved designs on cut glass. So suspect at the moment that is from where it hails. Will post pics when it arrives.
m
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I found a transcript of the film and the speakers on film discussed all the eggs apart from the mercury glass one and the reddy pink cut to clear one that I think is like my goblet! Can't believe it - I was so excited to find the transcript as well. Really irritating.
m
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It appears this goblet also came in blue. This one has a different pattern and a star cut foot with what appears to be a 24point star cut foot - difficult to tell as the stem hides the cutting at the back, but from counting what's there a 24 point seems probable. But the shape is the same, and the clunky appearance of the cut stem.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BOHEMIAN-BLUE-OVERLAY-CUT-GLASS-GOBBLET-/172168562245?hash=item28160bc645%3Ag%3At8cAAOSwwpdW6V2-&nma=true&si=CLybsvBGDrebiV0YHKobGEkcoFE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
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Well, sometimes things move on quite quickly :)
In the book BAGUIERS et VERRES À BOIRE du XIXème siècle. Leon Darnis 2014
on page 69,item no 75, Darnis shows a footed bowl (tazza / coupe) which ever word you prefer
in green with white overlay that has an identical foot.
It is identified as 'St Louis vers 1840- 1850' Fluorescence Rose saumon'
http://verrehistoire.typepad.com/files/leon_darnis.pdf
I checked out this book, because as I stated earlier in the thread, this goblet has a curious orangey fluorescence. I then came across a paperweight in the book La Cristallerie de Clichy where it was said it had a salmon coloured fluorescence.
Which lead me onto looking into French glass again. Where a reference on a Bonhams auction on another thread gave this book by Leon Darnis. And so ... to an id.
Sometimes it's the smallest detail is all you need.
I've been all round the world as usual. I'm sad it's not Russian, but delighted it is St Louisand c.1840-1850 nice early piece of overlay( and that I had the date more or less correct in my thinking). Wish I'd bought the blue one now. If whoever bought it is reading - here is your id.
Thanks all for bearing with my ramblings
m
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Didn't occur to me to put these side by side.
But the large goblet is a St Louis (marked) Chantilly in ruby (produced from 1958 I believe).
The smaller is I believe St Louis dated to c.1840-1850.
Doesn't appear to be any difference in colour so possibly they've been using the same recipe all those years.
Their website says ruby became their signature colour in 1837:
‘1837 : Saint-Louis produces the first mass-coloured crystal objects and makes ruby red its signature colour.’
and
'If, as Paul Claudel wrote, “glass is solidified breath”, then crystal is a spark of the human soul. Crystal glass was introduced in France by François de Beaufort, director of the Verreries Royales de Saint-Louis in 1781. Like glass, it was a material born of the earth and forest of the Vosges, in a cradle of fire, to which lead was added for weight, sonority, and light. To this fine white sand was added potash – originally plant ash, now chemically produced – as well as minium, or red lead.
And that is still the formula for clear, or colourless crystal. Coloured crystal is obtained by adding metal oxides to this mixture: nickel oxide for purple, cobalt oxide for Saint-Louis blue, copper with gold chloride for ruby red. ‘
Anyway, just thought it might be interesting to see them together :)
m
P.s. Ivo, if you're reading ... 'copper with gold chloride for ruby red.' ? Adds a whole new dimension to the discussion on ruby glass!