Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: Grady on August 21, 2015, 03:57:19 PM
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Hi, I bought this paperweight at a boot fair last weekend. On Line research has brought me to think it may be victorian and to this forum. Your opinions or help in identification would be appreciated. Thank you Grady
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Hi Grady. It is a Murano paperweight. The clarity / brightness of the colours suggests to me it is no later than mid 20th century. I would have thought it was 1950s - 1970s - certainly later than Victorian.
Alan
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Canes look similar to these two, no idea how accurate any dates are:
http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/archive/antique-paperweights/venice/knopped-scrambled.html
http://www.weights-n-things.com/en/archive/antique-paperweights/venice/corkscrew-twists.html
John
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Hi. I am not convinced that either of those two pieces are mid 19th century. The dated Murano paperweights from Bigaglia are well documented, and tend to use canes as well as ribbon, and have duller colours and poorer quality glass (eg the one below). I think the clearer glass and brighter colours came along later. They may be late 19th century...but the style continues to this day.
Alan
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I have a -- possibly -- stupid question: wouldn't the snapped-off pontil suggest a date at least pre 1940?
IMHE there is not much Murano glass post WW2 with a base finish like that.
I noticed that there are quite a few "antique" Venetian scramble weights with a base like that around, which are not necessarily Bigaglia, but might still be quite old...
I would think that there may have been other glassworks on Murano copying the style? Or was Bigaglia the only producer of paperweights there in the 1800s?
Michael
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Hi. I think you are right about the base finish - the great majority of pieces made post WW2 have a polished base. I have seen a few that had 1930s - 1940s millefiori canes with a gently concave polished base, and the odd one with a pontil scar, but nearly all are flat polished. Regarding other makers besides Bigaglia, I am not sure that anyone has a definitive answer. I believe that he is the only one widely referred to as making paperweights, but that does not rule out others.
Alan
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Alan, thank you very much for your reply!
Attributing Murano glass from any era seems a minefield ;)
Michael
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When I saw this thread, before any replies were added, my initial thoughts were:
a) Hmm, looks too bright to be 19th century
b) Surely, it couldn't be a modern Chinese version - I think they do make "triple" or "knopped" weights like this?
Alan's first thoughts were along the same lines as mine. Then John's links to the "Weights-n-Things" examples made me think again.
And now I simply don't know!!
When I first became interested in paperweights, I understood from collectors and dealers that "Venetian / Murano" weights were separated by their general "look and feel". Those that were similar in style to "Bigaglia" weights and had a lack of brightness about them, were 19th century and known as "Venetian". Anything that was brighter and had a rather thicker glass coating, or an obvious "dome", were 20th century and known as "Murano".
And I also learned that 19th century examples could be separated into "Bigaglia" (by cane and twist matches to signed examples) and "later 19th century".
Maybe, with the extra knowledge and research of recent times, those generalized separation criteria are not very reliable. But do we really have enough evidence to be sure? I don't know.
The only thing I would add in detail is that the OP's weight and the first one that John linked to seem to have a very similar base finish, which to me looks half "cracked off" and half "fire polished" (hard to tell without close up images).
For elimination purposes, I tried tried to find some examples of modern Chinese examples but even Alibaba is not coming up with the ranges they used to show!!
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Interesting thoughts, Kevin.
Not a second would I think the paperweight in question is Chinese.
As far as I have learned, base finish of Chinese paperweights is quite distinctive, regarding both the old 1930s ones and the newer / modern ones; I have never come across a Chinese paperweight with a broken pontil like that.
And I think I have never seen a Chinese scramble weight with these long pieces of "latticino" and twists.
The variety of twists and canes in Chinese paperweights seems rather limited, too.
And what I don't really see either is a huge difference in the brightness of colours between this knobbed paperweight and antique Venetian ones.
If you look at this Bigaglia weight, it is hard to imagine something much more colourful with the strong pink, blue and yellow canes >> http://www.theglassgallery.com/files/past-auctions/auction-56/004.jpg (http://www.theglassgallery.com/files/past-auctions/auction-56/004.jpg)
As to when the weight which started this thread may have been made, I am as cluesless as you ;)
There seems to be a huge gap in knowledge between the classic period Venetian paperweights and the Murano paperweight production post WW2.
Michael
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Hi. I agree that the paperweight you have linked to looks very bright...a little too bright, in my opinion. The image will have been processed, and it is easy to make changes that enhance the appearance excessively. Here are three images of the same Bigaglia paperweight - only one looks like the actual paperweight does in the hand, but unless you are holding it you would not be sure which was most accurate.
Alan
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Thank you Alan.
I do agree that image processing might lead to brighter colours in a photograph.
But I don't see a big difference in the single colours of the knobbed paperweight to those in some antique weights, just the overall impression seems more colourful, maybe due to the layout.
Kevin's lovely old Venetian paperweight does show some similar colours, too, particularly the bright teal canes >> http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,56842.msg322320.html#msg322320 (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,56842.msg322320.html#msg322320)
Brackel says in his book that the classic production period of paperweights in Venice stopped around 1870.
So I would be interested when these (brighter coloured yet still antique looking) weights were made...
Michael
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Thank you all for your comments and opinions. I wonder if it would help if i added a few more pictures taken indoors (to avoid the "brightness" of the originals and a clearer view of the base ?
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That would be useful. When you look closely can you see any specks or lumps of ash in the glass?
I have had three Murano weights through my hands that I felt had a bit of age, two I assumed late 19thC and the other early 20thC. Adding them here for reference, hopefully they could be useful.
More photos of the first weight here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,55522.0.html
Weights one and two have snapped marks, uneven domes and lumps of ash
The third weight is small at around 3 or 4 cm in diameter, ground pontil mark, the flower cane is found in vases made by Fratell Toso circa 1910.
John
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More canes circa 1910, jug with satin finish, plenty of colour on show.
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Thanks John for providing some pics for comparison!
Michael
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Hi glass obsessed and other interested members, Thank you again for your help. Firstly, I have looked again at the paperweight and there are a number of areas that show black "specks" which could be ash. These are within the glass not on the outside plus many tiny bubbles. I have also looked again at the base and it is not flat/polished as described by tropdevin. It is slightly concave in the centre leading to a rough "belly button" at the very centre. I have tried to capture these points in a few photographs which I have included below in the hope that it helps to clarify or inform the discussion.
Thank you again
Grady
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Thanks the images are good. If I had bought it I reckon I would be thinking late C19 but it is not an informed opinion. I have no literature covering this topic and paperweights as a whole I know little about. I guess the possibility of early C20 needs to be left open too.
What is noticeable is that these (likely) older weights are quite different to the weights typically found from the 1950s onwards (shape, base finish etc).
What I take to be the fine particle size and bright colour of the aventurine (coppery stuff) in yours is interesting too.
John
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I think this is a very interesting thread. So much so that I have taken time to consider my own comments and current thoughts. I have also prepared photos of elements of my weight. My (lengthy) comments on this will be added soon as another post.
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To clarify my comment about Grady’s item being “too bright to be 19th century” perhaps I should have said “too white”? But in fact it was both the extensive white parts and also the amount of clear glass that struck me as different to other 19th century / early 20th century Venetian weights I have seen. But I have not seen very many!
Regarding the “brightness of colours” and various photographic effects, I agree, on a general basis, with Alan’s points as demonstrated by his three sample photos of the same Bigaglia weight.
Also, with respect to my own “later 19th century” weight (as linked to by Michael in Reply 10), my photos were taken with flash, thus enhancing the brightness. And I also use some degree of image sharpening and a touch of added contrast.
However, what I see in my weight when viewed in ordinary room lighting or daylight, is not the apparent brightness of the colours, but how closely set all the internal elements are and how, overall, it has a rather dull look from any distance other than close up. I liken the effect to my collection of Paul Ysart weights, where, from a distance the 1960s / 70s items clearly stand out as being “brighter” than the pre-1960s ones even though there are bright colours in even the dullest of the PY weights.
Having said all that, I have studied my Venetian weight carefully and I now agree that the colours, and the aventurine, are much like those in the Grady’s item. Maybe some colours could be said to be an exact match. To assist with this, I have produced a set of photos showing the colours and basic elements within my weight. The photos have been taken with a “macro lens” and no flash. This means the colours will not be brightened by flash, but because they are close-up images, they will show the colours without appearing to be “dull” as they do from a more distant view.
In order to keep things tidy, my new photos have been added to the thread that Michael linked to, that is: "Old Murano Paperweight – ID Help Please". The photos start at: Reply 18 (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,56842.msg343306.html#msg343306)
By viewing this current thread and my posts of the other thread in separate windows, side by side comparisons can easily be made.
So, what is my opinion now? Well, I think my weight and Grady’s item are very likely from the same maker. Either that, or the same / similar canes were used throughout a number of years. It is the closeness, or not, of the internal elements that makes a clear difference to the visual impact, and also the apparent size of the elements in Grady’s item as opposed to the much smaller parts of mine.
When were these items made? I don’t know, but I still tend to think “later 19th century / early 20th century” rather than 1850s or earlier.
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Hi. Here are a couple of images of a Venetian scramble piece I used to own. The glass is rather dark, and the colours muted. Given the simplicity and absence of millefiori, I considered it to be later than the mid 19th century, when Bigaglia was making his paperweights - that is to say, late 19th century. Hence my feeling that the similar designs with better glass and brighter colours were made in the early 20th century. I don't think my piece was made in the late 18th or early 19th century, which would be an alternative explanation of the differences, but perhaps I am wrong?
Alan
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Great thread and thanks to all the contributors,I know wear can be misleading and if it's already been mentioned sorry for bringing it up,but how much is there on the base.
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Hi. If you mean my piece, it has noticeable wear - image below. That said, I don't think wear tells you much about a piece really: give a new paperweight to a child to play with and it is likely to end up looking worn, whereas get an old piece restored and it might look brand new!
Alan
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Thanks Alan interesting to see what to look for underneath ,although I did mean the original weight starting the thread.
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Thank you John, Kevin and Allan for taking the time to investigate these Venetian weights of uncertain age!
Still no final conclusion (the info on paperweight making on Murano between end of 19th century and WW2 seems really scarce), but at least some hints that paperweights in a similar style to the earlier Bigaglia weights (maybe using brighter canes) may have been made during that period.
My questions were a little bit selfish ;)
As I a am still thinking the features in >> this mystery paperweight I asked about some time ago (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,60608.0.html)might hint to that production period as well.
But it is very different in other respects...
Michael
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Ah! That one that we all passed on! I have bumped it with a query.
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Hi,I think posting on this interesting thread is possibly apt for this weight I found recently.The glass is a tad grey and the flat base has a lot of wear with slightly deeper scratches showing wear aswell.The base is not a perfectly circular,it's about 2.5" wd and is very rich and colourful almost festive.Any thoughts on this one gratefully accepted.I'm trying a new method of putting up images so I hope it works!
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Another.
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And the last.
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Hi. It is a Murano scramble, that might well be Victorian. I think this style was made in the late 19th - early 20th century.
Alan
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Blimey that was quick!,thanks Alan I was hoping it was from about that era,I should add you can feel the tooling marks when you run your finger over the crown and there is one bit of pink latticio with a fine darker pink/ red edge.
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I noticed this one on E-Bay, and the reason that I post it is because it still has the Murano label:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scrambled-Latticino-Twisted-Candy-Canes-Murano-Venetian-Glass-Paperweight-/292281458171
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Hi. I think the eBay one dates to the mid 20th century - as the seller suggests.