Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on September 11, 2015, 11:29:22 AM
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It's a sherbert cup I believe like my other one.
I think it's 2nd half 19th century.
I don't think it's Harrach Malachit at all.
I don't think it's Harrach full stop although the decor has some similarities.
It has the first layer of turquoise glass rolled in white opaque glass patches. That layer appears to have masses of black specks in it as though it was a deliberate decor of white patches with black specks in turquoise gather.
The second layer is thicker and is clear turquoise glass. I know this because the plate is done in the same way and so the first layer which is on the top facing side of the saucer as you look at it, makes the saucer look slightly paler than the cup and cover because the cup and cover have the second layer of thicker plain turquoise glass on the outside.
The gilding is straight onto the glass and is very worn. It would have had lots of bright gilded bands. There is one around the rim of the cup just below where the lid sits. Then a couple around the body of the cup and around the lid and the knob and the saucer. The knob was gilded at the very top with some kind of pointy pattern I think as one part is still remaining.
Rims are cut with a bevel on the outside edge but not the inside on all pieces. Rims were all gilded over the cut surface.
Handle applied bottom to top and is very clear turquoise glass, as is the outer casing layer,so the black bits in the white patches are a deliberate decor.
I don't think the knob is applied. The lid is blown into a mould as the knob is hollow and you can see a very tiny opening from the inside of the lid.
The base of the cup is curious. It is indented completely but not randomly pushed in, it is mould blown I think and designed like that.
Lots of wear on the cup and the saucer bases.
From what I read, some Italians went over to Turkey to help with glass production in the last century? It does remind me more of Italian glass somehow, than Bohemian, although the design of the decor is quite Bohemian and the design of the piece is Turkish. So all in all I think it might be a piece of 19th century Turkish glass to be honest.
(could be completely wrong and it might be 1960s ;D)
Harrach Malachit was launched around 1855/1860 I think.
This is a similar effect. But I'm sure it is not Harrach as their Malachit/Malachite did not have black bits in. But is also reminiscent of the early 1900's spatter Bohemian pieces in some ways. As well as reminding me of Italian glass because of the clear Turquoise I think.
However I think it probably dates to around second half of 19th. 19th century versions of these glass covered cups are fairly scarce to come by (new ones from Pasabahce are equally scarce and were limited editions) and because of the design. Remarkable that it has survived with cup saucer and lid, although all have very tiny chips around them in places.
m
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more pics
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The largest supplier to the Ottoman empire was still VSL so I'd look to Belgium.
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oooh really. thanks Ivo. But does the decor and the cut rims fit with that?
Somehow I can see that the design might to be honest and the clear turquoise handle and overlay. What time period - do you agree 2nd half 19th?
m
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Reminds me of these too, Kralik Soft Crackle but they lack the black specks and the extra casing of yours.
John
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oh yes, definitely - I'd been wracking my brains trying to think where I'd seen that white crackle effect before ::)
It also has that bubbly effect in the white and the surface of the plate is odd and full of bubbles but the base of the plate isn't.
It is possible that it's blown out crackle as none of the patches appear to overlap each other - which I guess they would if it were picked up on the marver as it would be quite difficult to avoid.
So yes,
I'm looking at the lid rim now and you can see internal turquoise, then the very thin layer of white then a thicker layer of external turquoise. I was lookin at the rim of the cup before and it's been gilded so not possible to see the detail of the layers.
Thanks!
m
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Came across this Islamic blue glass vase - know nothing about Islamic glass but wouldn't think crackle would be their thing even 19th century.
But it's the same effect and cased in the Turquoise
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/an-islamic-blue-glass-vase-late-19th-4092179-details.aspx?pos=3&intObjectID=4092179&sid=&page=5&lid=1
Link to some Turkish glass here
http://www.pasabahcemagazalari.com/butik/geleneksel-camlar/beykoz-camlari/beykoz-kirmizi-opal-sekerlik/u-48128-83-182
m
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and here
http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/christies-south-kensington/catalogue-id-srchristi10140/lot-bf4940cf-933f-4889-bc50-a43d0042accb
This is one of the two old ones with handles I've found - can't find the other at the moment
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/35742646_a-turkish-ottoman-ormolu-mounted-cut-glass-crystal-cup
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The tin cracle was used extensively by Leerdam - that is where you may have seen it.
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ah, a very interesting 'napkin ring vase' thing here.
http://www.rubylane.com/item/543410-6372-A/Glass-Napkin-Ring-Bud-Vase-Malachite
all the pieces I've looked at that are Harrach Malachit are in the book, bar two - one on this board which is blue with enamelling on and one online which is white. I've not noticed any small black specks in any of them. There is one enormous vase that is grey Malachit that was at an exhibition and I'd have thought I'd have seen black specks on that because of the colour but didn't see any.
However... this piece is green Malachit or so it seems and there are very close ups to view, and it appears to have black specks in it. Nowhere near the amount of black specks mine has but they definitely seem to be there. The cut gilded edge of the 'napkin holder' part looks very similar as well to the rim of my cup.
So, is it 1860 ish Harrach Malachit then? wow, that would be amazing for it to turn out to be something I thought it might be then definitely thought it was not.
btw I did work out the correct Turkish term and managed to find about 6/7 early Bohemian versions and very exquisite they are - the price is also eye watering, so I wont be enlarging my collection anytime soon ;D
m
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It seems to have much in common with this set here actually:
5th [ * ] from bottom in the link of items if you scroll from bottom to top.
[Mod: the list of items seems to be dynamic - look instead for the white-blobbed Punch Bowl and Cups with Tray.]
http://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/glas/glas-19-farbglas.htm#objekt3
This is described as
'BIEDERMEIER BOWLE
wohl Gräflich Schaffgot` sche Josephinenhütte Schreiberhau, Schlesien, um 1850
dickes farbloses Glas mit weiß marmorierendem Unterfang, mit Gold bemalt, Bowlengefäß mit Deckel auf großer Platte mit acht Bechern
Lit.: Stefania Zelasko: Gräflich Schaffgot` sche Josephinenhütte, Glasmuseum Passau
Höhe: 35 cm; Durchmesser der Platte: 42,5 cm'
m
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I've put that on magnification and the white does appear to have little black flecks in it. The design is remarkably similar in style to my lidded cup and the gilded bands are also.
I think that mine is then probably Josephinehutte c 1850. That is quite a bit earlier than I thought.
Any comments welcome :) thank you.
m
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That date can't be right for mine can it? woudn't the handle application put it at later than that surely?
m
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apologies that I keep replying to myself :) but as you were -
have found a vase in the Harrach book with handles applied bottom up dated 1850-1855.
So all good on the handles, the decor, the gold banding etc.
any comments welcome :)
m