Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass Paperweights => Topic started by: orangeglass on September 28, 2015, 04:07:33 PM
-
For show: these are all from Caithness jewellery pieces.
The first two stones are from pieces hallmarked London 1970 - I believe these must be Paul Ysart stones from what I have read, the third is dated Edinburgh 1971 - I think it is a Ysart stone but could someone (Kev are you out there? ;)) please confirm if possible.
Would the second one be a Maltese Cross? Can't remember the significance if it is!
sorry for the picture quality - best i could do with my phone!
thank you in advance :)
-
First ... Paul Ysart
Second ... I have no idea; I don't recall seeing a cruciform cane in PY work
Third ... either PY or Peter Holmes
-
Ooh - sitting on the fence with the third one!! ::) ;) ;D
I've seen several similar PY stones but not identical!
re 2nd stone:
According to Franks site:
"All pieces marked from 1968 to 1970 contain a stone by Paul Ysart"
so if this is correct the second should be a PY stone - I'm sure I've read somewhere about this but can't for the life of me find it. Anyone else have anything to add? If not PY then this info is incorrect - but did P. Holmes do any stones like this?
Peter Holmes took over from late 1970 but there were still a stock of PY stones left - so could be either - must have another search for the third one.
-
The dates of what and when are a bit more complicated than people may think!
Earlier literature has stated such as: "Paul Ysart left Caithness Glass in 1970" and "the Harland works were started in 1971". However, later information sets Paul's retirement from Caithness Glass as "during 1972".
Which means that, depending on whether there was an overlap of both Paul and Peter Holmes making the "stones", we probably should be saying that Caithness Jewellery from 1968 until at least "sometime in 1972 had a py "stone". And we have to allow for the remaining "stones" carried forward from "sometime in 1972". In fact, Colin Mahoney, in his book on PY Paperweights, said, "... much, if not all, of the 1973 pieces contained Ysart canes".
So, for the items in this thread, my thoughts about who may have made them would appear to be even more inaccurate, given the hallmark dates of 1970 and 1971. But I stand by my "sitting on the fence". The 2nd example is not in keeping with my experience of PY "stones" and the 3rd one looks to me as though it might or might not be by PY.
-
Thanks Kev, I do agree with you that the the second example looks nothing like a PY stone and I haven't come across anything like this. Am I correct in thinking Willie Manson was working there at this time? (not that it l think it looks like any of his, just trying to establish a few facts).
The nearest I have found (and not really that similar) is J Deacons cruciform canes.
Does any one recognise this second cane or have seen anything like it anywhere? It is very "neatly" done.
Anyone seen anything like it in a PH weight or even other Caithness Jewellery.
Why is nothing ever as simple as it i supposed to be!! ::) ::)
-
About the 2nd "stone", here's a thought ...
The London hallmark for 1970 is certainly, a "P" for the date, but so is the one for 1989 albeit a slightly different style. Was Caithness jewellery still made in 1989?
-
I don't know about the jewellery, but these "stones" are also found on glass thimbles. ;)
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?album=53&pid=2334#top_display_media
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?album=53&pid=2335#top_display_media
Could this stone be attributed? :)
-
Thanks Sue,
those are fairly typical of the other stones used on Caithness Jewellery, it just that the one on the second image seems so different to any of the others.
Kev (or do you prefer Kevin?) I have checked it again and again and its definitely the 1970 "P".
With regard to the third stone - is it possible to have canes from both PY and PH in one stone?
-
Hello,
I would like to see the whole second piece,
is it a brooch, a pin, ring or pendant?
Possibly the Stone was replaced later on?
the cruciform stone reminds very much of Peter McDougall, - I would vote for PMcD instantly-
I have a dollhouse weight with a similar layout, but not the exact cross match...
Five pointed stars - I have only seen one (!) cane example from Paul Ysart, from the 1930ies-
most others have six or eight-or more- points...
Kind regards, Erhard
-
For reference here is a cane from a 1976 dated piece - the colours are much more translucent and not as "crisp"
-
For Erhard - it is a ring.
-
As the picture isn't to great I'll try and describe the cross cane detail:
The cane is not exactly circular - it looks seven- sided - outer sheath of white, blue inner (like a wedgewood blue) white cross with a central cane of black with a zig-zaggy white pattern just inside that, then a white 6 sided star, inside that a possible red hexagon and finally a central something that is too tiny to make out!
does this help at all! :D
-
thank you and wow- what a terrific ring!
Still I am more into a PMcD cane (with the cross) than a Paul Ysart cane-
maybe Roy has evidence of this cane? -
Kind regards Erhard
-
I think Erhard is on the right track. I have an identical style ring, also hallmarked for London, but date 1972. It has what I believe is a PY stone and this sits very neatly in the setting.
When I look closely at the setting of the stone in the questioned item, it does not sit as neatly as my example but seems to show a gap or ridge (?) between the edge of the stone and the metal. So yes, it may well be a replacement.
As for the question of whether a stone could have both PY and PH elements - in theory it could be possible ... but I think it would not have happened.
-
Ahh - someone could have lost or damaged the original stone and possibly sent it to or gone to Caithness to get a replacement stone put in at a later date. Makes sense!
thank you everyone
-
Just got confused with PH & PMcD - did the latter work at Caithness?
Yes - just looked it up!
-
Peter McDougall was at Perthshire Paperweights until that company closed in 2002 and then he started his own business.
-
Only at Caithness since 2012..... I have emailed him asking him to take a look if possible.................... :D
-
Hi,
just a little detail- the ring design is R 12, 1970 onwards on Scotlands Glass,
pls see: http://www.scotlandsglass.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=150&Itemid=6
Kind regards Erhard
-
Are there any artist's initials in the hallmark of the silver of the ring - it looks rather '70s and of a "designer" rather than a generic style to me.
-
hi Sue,
Taken from Franks Ysart glass site:
"The jewellery was Paul Ysart’s idea. He had been making small ‘stones’ and setting into cheap jewel fittings as presents for friends and family. Caithness saw a potential and put Colin Terris in charge of further development. The range was officially launched in December 1970. Colin Terris designed a range of brooches and pendants inspired by traditional Scottish design and hired Lucia Polanski as a jewellery designer; she produced the rings, earrings and cufflinks designs. "
Also see the link Erhard put in - mine is in a box labelled R20 but like a lot of things - (they were hand written) and not always correct!
-
:)
Thanks!
I know our interest here is the glass, but I am aware that there was a huge surge of interest in designer jewellery in Scotland around the '70s; many of the artist's names are now extremely well known and their work is highly sought after, especially if it has the artist's initials in the hallmark.
(My mother got into collecting this sort of designer jewellery at the time.)
-
The cane at just after 12 o'clock on this link:Peter McDougall G12B Incredibly Complex Cane Closepack on Red Ground
http://www.ebay.com/cln/gnofb/Paperweight-Collection/65238853016
looks very very similar.
So, I think it most likely is a replacement using a Peter McDougall stone.
thanks to Kev & Erhard
-
The five cross canes that make up the inner row of that complex cane do look like a close match.
For a slightly better view of two other cases of probably the same cross cane click here (https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/decorative-objects/desk-accessories/peter-mcdougall-close-packed-millefiori-paperweight/id-f_663000/), wait until the page settles then click the new image of the weight; from the next page displayed, click the right-arrow three times. The complex cane with 13 yellow outer canes has a central element that is probably a match to the cross cane. And diagonally down to the left of that cane is another complex cane with 9 blue outer canes and again probably the same cross cane element in the centre.
-
Yes, I'm pretty certain that's a match! thanks.
I love it when we get to the bottom of things!
(can't believe how many weight images I've looked at over the last few days ;D)