Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: vidrioguapo on June 28, 2006, 09:20:30 PM
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If anyone is interested, I have compiled a year by year list of colours used by Whitefriars. There is also a summary of some of the colours, mainly those with a limited production. It can be viewed on whitefriars.org. Scroll down the home page and there is a link about half way down on the right hand side.
It covers the years 1949 - 1980
Hope it is interesting and useful....Emmi
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Thanks Emmi it looks very useful.
Here's the URL:
http://www.whitefriarsorg.org/a2-information/colour-list.htm
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Thanks for all of the information. With Whitefriars I alway find it difficult to distinguish between the colour given by the manufacturer and that given by collectors.
Thanks for making the effort to collate information from the original catalogues :) .
Sticky anyone?
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Thanks to you two Davids!!!
I hope it will help some people with more detailed identification of their items, and for correct descriptions when selling....nothing tees me off more than the fabricated colour descriptions like Ocean Blue? Moss Green? Smokey grey? Cobalt Blue?
Emmi
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Thanks Emmi...must have taken you some time to do that. :D Hopefully it'll help new collectors and old alike! :wink: :D
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The only suggestion is to have a photo of each example (a backlit swatch would be good) to accompany the chart. Does Peter O have these? I'll give you a hand to create the HTML if you want.
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Thanks Max -yes it was a bit time consuming!
David, the colour chart was put on there by Peter O, I would think that there are too many colours to be able to do that bearing in mind site space or whatever it is called. It's a fantastic idea ...but I think in practice may not be possible. Also in my experience it is SO difficult to get real colour representation and the real recognition of colour is only possible by seeing and handling the goods...too many colours are too similar. Thank you for your offer, maybe Peter O will take you up on it. Emmi
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Emmi, thank you, that is really useful. Well done you. :)
I do agree with David's suggestion of examples as well... I'm sure a lot of us have pieces we'd be prepared to submit for such a guide - I'd like to see colours on whole pieces as well as a closeup, rather than just a closeup of a sample colour as on the other W/f site which I find more difficult to match up with glass I'm looking at.
(Can I ask something I've long wondered about ... are the two Whitefriars' sites .com and .org connected at all or are they run by separate people?)
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Run by separate people, Anne.
I do agree with what you say Emmi: my thoughts about colour samples are that they would be tremendously difficult to photograph and keep consistent — except if they were all done using the same lighting conditions. A white backlight for each sample would be an ideal solution.
Naturally this would mean one person having all the samples, so very difficult to achieve in that sense.
You can send me all your WF examples if you want :sigh: If I must :wink:
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Thanks David, I wasn't sure.
Hmmm yes, I see the problem with different lighting etc causing variations...
...but I don't think you should be burdened with all that W/f glass David... tell you what, send it here instead and I'll deal with it for you. ;)
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Tell you what....I'll let my glass know that you care, maybe you could be surrogate custodians? In the meantime - it's all MINE!!
Your suggestions above, would need a site all of it's own - a mamouth task and my own photography skills are not up to it, but got to admit it would be brilliant.
Emmi
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I probably didn't make myself terribly clear, but I was just thinking of a single 'swatch' photo of every colour, but I wasn't advocating every colour with every pattern, which I agree would be a nightmare! :shock:
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Yes, I understand what you mean David, but in the meantime, this will have to suffice.
As David Hier suggested above, it may be worthwhile to make this into a "sticky" for future easy reference, as this posting will soon get lost under the deluge of new messages.
N.B. there is a "glich" or two in the colour reference, nothing serious, but will be put right ASAP. Just a typographical error!! Otherwise it is as accurate as can be .
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Thanks for this, Emmi! It's a fantastic reference.
For me, the most troublesome problem is with distinguishing the various shades of blue. The others *seem* to be easier. I think I have swans in arctic blue, sapphire blue and now sky blue, but I'm just not sure.
How much variability was there between the individual batches, I wonder? Were they fairly consistent?
All the best,
Cathy
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OK Emmi, something to consider for later.
I imagine Frank will want to archive this.
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Hi. I'm new to this stuff but have a large collection of Baxter designs. I can't seem to find any research linking colours and the number of vases made in that colourway. For instance I have collectors claiming the indigo Banjo vase was only made a total of 78 times, then another claiming 600 times and another for 213! Is there a log available, either on-line or in a museum? Tom
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Hello Tom - welcome to the GMB
For someone who is new, it sounds as though you've done very well in forming a large collection of Baxter designs. Are you suggesting this information is available somewhere in archive form - though present whereabouts unknown - or is it more the case that you wish it was as this would be an interesting aspect to collectors. Do you know if those collectors making claims as to numbers made, in certain colours, have some form of provenance to support their claims? I'd suggest that people making such comments should at least have made some research to substantiate this info - have you asked these collectors for the source of their information?
I know less than nothing about this particular side of Baxter's output, and could be very wrong, but would have thought it possibly unlikely that the archives for such designs - assuming there are such things as accessible extant archives - might have included such detailed accurate data made at the time of production.
Now watch someone tell me I'm wrong ;)
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The information came from the workbooks at the factory, each blowers output was recorded, including both shape and colour. I think at least some of that information was available on whitefriars.com which is now no longer functioning. Don't know if any of it is available on whitefriars.org but may be worth asking there. Alternatively look for Whitefriars collectors groups on facebook and ask.
John
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thanks John - is it known what happened to the factory 'workbooks' you mention?
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You need a 'Friars aficionado for such questions Paul rather than me! I do remember seeing a photograph of a page from one though, it listed how many of a particular pattern number were made on a given day and in which colour.
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thanks - obviously I was wrong with my assumptions then :) - serious collectors of W/Fs seem not so frequent these days, at least not on the GMB ……… that is apart from Tom ;)
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I seem to recall that Harrow Museum acquired a lot of the paperwork from Whitefriars. https://headstonemanor.org/
The Museum of London also has a Whitefriars collection. https://collections.museumoflondon.org.uk/online/group/24222.html
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Should have remembered the Museum of London connection - Leslie Jackson's book was produced to accompany that exhibition in the 1990s - plus the exhibition also spent some time in Manchester.
The opening page shows a Whitefriars goblet described as 'made in Flint (colourless) glass' - with production date c. 1970.
Not impossible of course that this piece might have been made using flint pebbles, though highly unlikely, but surprising and misleading that the MoL should equate clear glass with the word flint for a piece as recent as c. 1970. Since this goblet shows some v.g. cutting, then it might be assumed to have some lead content.
Surprisingly, Jackson's glossary for 'flint' reads …...……. "Clear colourless glass. Mainly used to describe lead glass, but during the early 20th century colourless soda glass was sometimes described as "soda flint" - no wonder we get confused ;)
Perhaps someone might ask the MoL if they have any of the workbooks mentioned here.
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Whitefriars gave the name Flint to their clear glass.
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yes, thanks John - I was drawing attention to the possible confusion, since, as we know, there was/is a genuine description of clear glass, where the silica, instead of being sand, was composed of crushed flint pebbles, and the resulting clear glass being called flint. When I looked at the goblet in the link, my first thought on reading the description was that it had been made from crushed flints rather than sand.
W/Fs. use of the word was in the sense of a sales appeal - sounds much better than saying simply clear glass, and I see the appeal - and in future I'll be forewarned. :)
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have been speaking to Danielle Thom at the MoL, who confirms that the museum does hold much of the W/Fs business records and 'some' of the work books.
I've explained details of Tom's question re quantity of colours/shapes produced regarding Baxter designs, and the museum have promised to make an investigation in the coming days.
Fingers crossed the response might help with this thread, and will post the museum's reply as and when.
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Reference my last comments, have received the following email reply from the Museum of London.
""Dear Mr Stirling,
Thank you for your recent enquiry, regarding our Whitefriars glass archives. We have a quantity of material in our collection which may answer your question regarding the Baxter ‘Banjo’ vases; primarily the three boxes of Baxter’s personal papers, working notes and sketches.
We also hold the Whitefriars catalogues for most years between 1967-78, and a large number of glassblowers’ workbooks covering the same period.
Regrettably, we do not have the resources to go through these archives in detail. However, you are very welcome to make an appointment at the museum to look through these archives, for the information which may answer your enquiry. If you would like to make an appointment, more information (including the booking request form) can be found here.
Best wishes,
Danielle""
I had tried, obviously without success, to assist the Museum's efforts in economizing their time searching on our behalf, by indicating that this request be restricted to data concerning Mr. Baxter's Indigo 'Banjo' design only. Apparently Indigo was one of the initial colours used in 1967 for this design. Cutbacks, cutbacks and probably yet more cutbacks - with the result that museums now lack curators, and curators lack time to research.
So, now rather a dilemma then :-\ - having encouraged the lady to assist with our enquiry, I'm unsure that I have the stamina to wade through all of the museum's archive of which Danielle Thom speaks, consisting of the factory material, plus Mr. Geoffrey Baxter's personal notes, though I suspect there are some here who might give their molars for such an opportunity. However, assuming offers are not forthcoming, then I guess that somewhere in the coming weeks I shall have to bite the bullet.
Presumable Tom's location is too far distant to London??