Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on January 05, 2016, 01:21:58 AM
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This goblet was sold in 1989 as:
'The thistle-shaped bowl decorated with a hand emerging from clouds crowning a heart within a circular cartouche surrounded by floral foliage, inscribed above in Russian For Constancy, with a facet cut lower part and knopped inverted baluster stem, above a folded conical foot, circa 1750<br>'
http://russianauctions.ru/lot/28808/
Interesting from the point of view of two threads really.
Firstly I have a gilded glass egg with a crown set on top of something, possibly a heart which I believe is Russian and 18th century. Secondly we have had another goblet on here with a hand coming out of the clouds, appearing to pick a heart up from a number of hearts and this might help id it.
So is this particular goblet Russian? It has a Russian inscribed saying around the top apparently translating as 'For Constancy'.
Thanks for any help.
m
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Hi ,
My opinion would be that the glass is German/Saxon, the form, thistle bowl and facet cutting is very typical of mid 18thc glass from this region , it is very common to find inscriptions on German glass in various languages , German of course also Dutch and french , I suppose for supply to those countries, having had a quick look at the Rijksmuseum catalogue all in this form are described as German/Saxon mid 18th C
cheers ,
Peter.
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Thank you Peter. I'm aware there are probably subtle differences between glasses and between engraving on the glass that I cannot 'see' because I know absolutely nothing about goblets. But this one was sold at Sothebys in 2002 I think and appears to me to be a very similar shape.
AN ENGRAVED IMPERIAL GLASS GOBLET
18th century
Of baluster form, engraved with the cypher of Elizabeth Petrovna and the Imperial eagle with flowers This lot contains 1 item(s).
http://russianauctions.ru/lot/19879/
I suppose I'm wondering if there was a cross over period in style of design and making whereby that shape might also have been made in Russia, as there is also a very similar thistle shaped goblet also faceted, with lid, int the book Russian Glass of the 17th-20th centuries no 9. that is described as 'Engraved with reindeer. Vasily Maltsov's glassworks, engraved by Stepan Lagutin, mid 18th century'?
The book also says on page 17
'Many products of the St Petersburg factory survive. These are chiefly goblets, beakers, tumblers.... . They attest vividly to the vitality of engraving at that time. ... Inevitably, the presence of foreign engravers was reflected in the character of the decoration, which in many ways resembles the Bohemian, Silesian, and Saxon styles. However, the presence of these different influences imparted a unique character to the glass of St Petersburg. In addition,the Russian masters interpreted the foreign styles in their own way while remaining faithful to traditional tastes both in the choice of subjects and in the composition of their engravings.'
So I'm just wondering if this is the case with these glasses and their shape I suppose.
m
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Hi ,
re the linked glass , there is also the possability for this one that the glass is not Russian or engraved in Russia, but made for the Russian market, but as always I could be completely wrong , I don't have enough knowledge of Russian glass to be in anyway certain, could similar items to the glasses I do know about(German/Saxon) also have been made in Russia ?, why not ?, without signatures it can be very difficult to be 100% certain as to where anything was made, ie Venetian ? or Facon de Venise ? Dutch,Belgian, Spanish etc , opinions on some these types has changed considerably in the last few years.
I hope your digging around throws up some more info on Russian 18thc glass production, I for 1 would like to know more.
cheers ,
Peter.
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Hi,
Just noticed the change to your post re St Petersburg glass which I think highlights the difficulty in specific attribution with so much copying of styles in both glass and decoration and the use of foreign workers,
the more you dig , more questions arise , I suspect you will only get an informed answer re your glass with in hand examination from someone with specific knowledge on Russian glass , looking forward to the next instalment
cheers ,
Peter.
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Apologies Peter. I never know whether to add another post or amend and was aware you hadn't seen that extra info drawn from the book. So yes, I think there appears to have been quite a crossover of style probably.
I don't know whether they would have needed to import glass at that time - it's very hard to be definite about details of course. But I presume it's possible. The gist of what I've been reading is that there was quite a lot of glass making around in the 18th.
'More than 80 private glassworks were built in Russia during the 1700s.' Page 18
and there is more.
However, I would guess that any information is pretty hard to come by and I don't get the feeling from reading the information, that it's complete, because as is always the case, I think it simply isn't possible to portray a definitive and complete picture with the information that has been or is available.
From what I read Maltsov was the big producer ' By 1738, the Mozhaysk factory had turned into one of the major enterprises of the Russian glass industry.' and it goes on to give details of number of furnaces and engraving wheels and they are numerous.
However, also from what I read they were short of skilled workmen and amongst other measures to redress this, it does say that three Bohemian masters were signed by Vasili Maltsov in 1730 including a Joseph Genkin(an engraver) who stayed at the factory from 1730-1737 and then moved to Gottlieb Stenzel's factory in Dukhanino.
The book also acknowledges that without signatures it's difficult now to determine which engraved glasses can be attributed to the Maltsovs. But re the reindeer goblet it says
'A typical specimen of Maltsov's production is a goblet with gilded engraving that shows a running wounded deer and the inscription " A Flight from Illness' (no.9).' .... 'The goblet may have been engraved by Stepan Lagutin, who began to work at the Maltsov glasshouse in 1732. He was trained by Joseph Genkin and later replaced him as the leading master. '
As I said earlier quoting from the book, Genkin was a Bohemian master so I'm guessing from that, that there will have possibly been some Bohemian influence in the engraving and possibly influence passed on from Bohemian master to Russian engraving master who replaced him.
And on page 19 it says ' ...This chronology shows that in the first half of the 18th century, glass was engraved in Russia in at least four private factories besides those in Yamburg and St Petersburg.'
It's very interesting. Mostly because I absolutely love Russian glass and design and especially, for me, the 19th century glass. They are exquisitely made with great precision and design details, very graphic, confident, glass in terms of colour, cutting, engraving and overall design.
And once you start looking at 19th century, then you start looking at 18th century and so it goes ... :)
m
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Well found m,I think the Russian church was very much Catholic,so this could be the heart of Jesus...or Mary apparently....or Queen of my heart ???, If Russian you would have to think imported craftsmen from Germany.
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I am not sure this particular glass has anything to do with religion. And I don't read anything about the Catholic religion here when reading about the Orthodox Church :-\ (caveat is that I know absolutely nothing about Russian Orthodoxy or Catholicism)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church
I read it as a message perhaps from a loved one to another, about remaining constant (faithful? longevity of love? longevity of relationship?).
I think the emblem of putting a crown on the heart might be a love message or about the 'monarch' - ok scrub that,
I think the arm and heart are just 'messages' but not particularly about love/religion/etc.
Perhaps the arm just represents the faith in a higher being or perhaps it just means 'wishing' if you see what I mean? as in 'wishing our marriage longevity/constancy/faithfulness'. But doesn't mean the glass is linked particularly to religion of any sort.
On the other hand yes, it could mean faithfulness to a religion.
m
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Hi ,
Glasses with arms issuing from clouds (or are some frilly cuffs ,not clouds ?) as you probably know are not that uncommon,they can be found with a pair of clasped hands along with inscriptions relating to friendship and wishing success for a marriage etc , these hands I would read as representing nothing more than "people" 2 people clasping hands in friendship or the joining of 2 people ,single hands I would then interpret as a single person expressing as "m" says depending on the rest of the image ,love ,devotion or some other sentiment, so the hands i think represent nothing more than 1 or 2 persons,
if time allows tomorrow I will try and post a few pics of some hands .
cheers ,
Peter.
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oh yes, I forgot they were cuffs :)
So, no, I would say not a 'higher being' then ;D
And sorry bat, I think on your glass thread we talked at length about religion, and the hands, but since then I've probably done more research and seen more and came to the conclusion that they really are just text messages for the 18th century.
I have to confess I'm more interested in the Cyrillic script and the fact that the crown on the heart message is apparently 'For Constancy' as it relates possibly to my egg.
m
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Yup,having a good look at it I'm getting the love theme quite strongly,and I hope not just me,a touch of eroticism.
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And another interesting piece linked to these hearts and Russian theme:
A 'Russian Wine Glass' sold by Christie's in 2001
Description as follows:
'Lot Description
A GERMAN GOBLET AND A RUSSIAN WINE GLASS
Mid-18th century
The bowl of the goblet with faceted lower portion enclosing eight air bubbles, faceted baluster stem and domed foot, engraved with the portrait head within a crowned cartouche issuing trumpets, spears, flags, cannon, barrels, drums and another military trophies, 9 5/8in. (24.4cm.) high, the bowl of the wine glass with faceted lower portion raised on a faceted baluster stem and circular foot, engraved with a flaming heart within a rocaille cartouche of diapered pattern and flowers, the far side engraved with a Cyrillic inscription, 7 5/8in. (19.3cm.) high; together with a German wine glass, 18th century, with a faceted inverted conical bowl engraved with a seated shepherdess with two lambs, the far side engraved 'Redlichkeit schreibt eigenhändich ware Freundschafft bleibt beständlich', within a foliate surround, the foot engraved with diaper pattern and scrolls, 8 7/8in. (22.5cm.) high (3)'
Note: That is my underlining and bold to highlight that lot specifically. But interesting that we have another wine glass with flaming heart but with Cyrillic inscription.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-german-goblet-and-a-russian-wine-2053301-details.aspx?from=searchresults&&pos=7&intObjectID=2053301&sid=5f4bb66f-b1a9-42bd-aaba-20caa6eef07e&page=1&lid=1
Peter I haven't searched the entire museum collection of goblets again yet to check the shape, but I am wondering whether I'm going to find a thistle shape in the collection or not.
Perhaps these were 'imported' pieces - or the 18th century 'text' theme of hearts and love and flaming hearts was common in various countries. There was a link with Germany in the 18th century in terms of marriage in the ruling family if I have my facts correct. But I'm not sure if there was as early as mid 18th, (certainly from 1780s I believe though will need to check that date again and correct if wrong).
m
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see above
and umm, I, ve found a facet cut stemmed lidded goblet in a Russian collection now, engraved and gilded with suitor and lady and a flaming heart and Cyrillic inscription where it says it's Maltsov Glass 18th century.
m
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Hi ,
Is it the crown over heart that implies Constancy ? or the inscription above , which is how I interpret the catalogue description.
a few clouds cuffs and hands below , Dutch engraved for Friendship and Marriage,
cheers ,
Peter
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and another couple
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On reflection I think it's the inscription that refers to the Constancy.
And that the picture is what denotes what the giver wishes to be constant I guess (so therefore may not relate to the message in my egg).
So in the case of the heart and crown with the inscription as wellI think it is conceiveable it's to do with being Constant in some form of royal position (duke/duchess/baroness or something is what I mean). Or it might be that the crown and heart are just to do with marriage and love and therefore the Constancy is to do with the wish of the giver to the receiver that the marriage is constant (either meaning longevity of the marriage or the giver hoping for a marriage without ups and downs i.e a smooth and constant marriage).
It seems that the hands without the heart are friendship meanings. Those with hands and heart might be love tokens as you say.
The lidded goblet has a suitor appearing to be handed a heart by a seated lady for example - The inscription is quite crudely done and translated appears to read 'I live in tears' . That's a bit strange but perhaps means her love is unrequited from him or that she lives in tears until he accepts her heart or something. It's engraved gilded with faceted stem and faceted bottom of bowl. Not thistle shaped bowl though.
For what it's worth, from looking at military uniforms it seems to me that the uniform is early 1700s and Austrian ?
So in total that makes three with Cyrillic script, one (the lidded goblet with suitor and flaming heart and lady )apparently id'd ?as Maltsov.]
I'll keep looking.
I
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You may be used to such glass Peter ,but they blow me away,really like the first in your last post.
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see my long post above bat's last one above and this is the goblet - the clothes look early 1700s and Austrian? to me but the hat on him looks a bit odd? not entirely sure what uniform it is but it looks early to me.
Edited later - actually I've just seen a uniform of 1712-1720 Grenadier, Preobrazhensky leib-guard regiment and also a painting of Catherine the Great in the uniform of her Preobrazhenskii regiment so it might be that uniform maybe
here is the goblet
http://www.powerwriter.ru/images/steklo10.jpg
Uniform here if you type in
Catherine the Great by Virgilius Ericksen,1762
a picture of her on a horse comes up. Could be that uniform perhaps.
m
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There is at least one thistle shaped goblet in the Hermitage collection - I say 'at least' because it's quite hard to know whether or not I have searched the entire collection or not, but I have found one
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/wcm/connect/98bc08d3-c06d-49c5-bb94-a297a6990fde/WOA_IMAGE_1.jpg?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=3bfd61b3-03e9-403a-aabf-b1ebb5593148
Goblet with the Portrait of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna and the 'EP' Monogram
Place of creation:
Russia
Date:
1741-1761
Material:
colourless glass
Technique:
blowing, matt engraving, cutting
Dimensions:
h. 22,5 cm
Income:
Entered the Hermitage in 1919; transferred from the Museum of the Society for the Encouragement of the Arts
m
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This one doesn't have the heart on it but the words say
'Inseparable' and it shows clasped hands with cloudy cuffs.
https://d2mpxrrcad19ou.cloudfront.net/item_images/271254/8342418_fullsize.jpg
I thought it might prove the love thing, but I'm not sure it does not appear there are any romantic emblems on it.
Perhaps this is also the hand of friendship - don't know what the laurel wreath type thing signifies?
m
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Hi ,
Wreaths seem to be used to signify a joining together of people , either in friendship or marriage , again it all depends on its context and any inscriptions that are with it , this 1 below inscribed in French for the dutch market "our pleasures are equal ".
cheers ,
Peter.