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Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Malta Glass => Topic started by: Baked_Beans on February 24, 2016, 07:20:35 AM

Title: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 24, 2016, 07:20:35 AM

Apologies if this topic has been discussed before, it's just that recently I've noticed a subtle difference in the design of Mdina paper labels .

Don't wish to send everyone to sleep by discussing this but there are two main types of paper label which both have the same dimensions...  1 cm wide and 1.6 cm long .

The earlier of the two labels is the second one seen below and to the left in the photo of the two labels together.

The earlier label is based on Michael Harris's original design seen on page 18 of Mark Hill's book. Much thinner lines on the Maltese cross . The cross itself is set lower down in the castle tower and the words Mdina Glass are set much closer to the base of the tower than the later example.

The later label has a thicker more pronounced Maltese cross , the top of which extends much higher up in the tower. The words Mdina Glass are spaced further away from the base of the tower.

This isn't just a print setting error. It's a subtle change in the design of the label.

If you look at examples on ebay you can see many labels of the later design. The earlier label is always seen on early looking pieces with early looking signatures.

Anyway, it would be very useful to get the exact date when this label design change took place as it would help in dating Mdina glass in general .

I have also seen paper labels of the earlier design with the word Malta added below Mdina Glass . So there are probably more to be found but just to get the date on this change would be good .

Thanks for looking and reading down this far ....Cheers Mike  :D

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 24, 2016, 08:25:41 AM

Here's an ebay listing showing the label with the word Malta added... looks later that the one on the bird but seems to revert back to the thinner cross . The lettering is also larger .

http://www.ebay.de/itm/MDINA-GLASS-Malta-Paperweight-Briefbeschwerer-Vogel-Glas-M-Harris-/252291528118?hash=item3abdbf35b6:g:3UcAAOSwFqJWngCB

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 24, 2016, 10:24:10 AM

I don't think you can read too much into historical label details for several reasons:

branding wasn't as rigidly controlled in the 70s, 80s and 90s as it is today, certainly not for small companies, so variations would have been normal
you are talking small jobbing printers so different printer or even print run = label variant. These things weren't based on digital files and digital printing in the same way as they are now
you can't assume that one batch of labels was used up before another was started or that there was only one batch on the go

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 24, 2016, 11:01:38 AM

I agree completely, Christine.
Things were very random and hotch-potch, they just used what was to hand.
Mdina was written on the base, sometimes.
Items which might have been seconds or which hadn't been fully finished off, were sold anyway if the shop shelves were getting empty.
A label might be stuck on, but it also might not have been.

It was very much a matter of desperately trying to keep the shelves in the shop stocked.

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 24, 2016, 11:07:03 AM

They are valid points you are making Christine.

I doubt that there would be different printers involved , the paper labels are the same size so would have come from the same supplier. You can see variations in where the logo is set within the paper label on both designs .

The earlier of the two labels is seen in Mark Hill's book on page 133 and is described as ' A late 1960's - 1970's Mdina Glass paper label '

I haven't seen any earlier Mdina glass with the 'later' design of label attached (as I have described above ) . I have however seen lots of later Mdina glass with the later design of paper label attached . Cheers, Mike.

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Lustrousstone on February 24, 2016, 12:23:45 PM

Printers buy ready-made labels in; they only print on them. It's likely the labels all came from the same paper company, as they would have been imported but we don't know how many jobbing printers Malta had.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't take speculation as fact. We don't truly know whether Mark's label description is fact or an educated guess.

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 24, 2016, 12:30:07 PM

The label on the pwt in the ebay link with Malta underneath is a chevron pattern, which we know was not in production until the mid '70s.

But I've seen what I consider to be "early" paper labels on plenty of the deep purple/black background with the silver chloride loopy trails around it, which is also a later design from the mid-late '70s and into the '80s.
These are often accompanied (on these black and silver bits) with the long rectangular labels with numbers written on them in biro.

Nothing much can really be told about dates from labels.

Plastic ones are from the '90s! You won't find them on early bits. That's about it.

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 24, 2016, 12:42:11 PM

The label with Malta written towards the base looks later than the first two I mentioned above.

I do know about suppliers of paper labels to printers !

All I am saying here is this.....................Show me an early piece of Mdina glass with this later label attached.............. ;D I bet you can't find one  ;)

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 24, 2016, 12:47:47 PM

I might have to turn the house upside-down to look.  ;D
I've never paid much attention to labels or marks, (apart from looking out for Harris or Dobson scripts, or taking note of the general style of the Mdina mark, if there).

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 24, 2016, 01:18:28 PM

Ha !

Sadly , I think I'm  a closet stamp collector... :'(

I just want to add one final last observation....I promise ! These are only my observations !

The reason I think the paper label on the link to the paperweight above is later than the two I started this thread with is this.....here is a plastic label .....look how it's gone back to looking like the original design . The thinner Maltese cross which is lower down again in the castle tower and the wording is back closer to the base of the tower plus there is the addition of the word Malta. That's why the paperweight example looks close to the design of the plastic one introduced in the 1990's.  8)

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: glassobsessed on February 24, 2016, 07:11:21 PM

It is usually possible to roughly date Mdina by a combination of form, pattern, colour and signature script. Get enough examples with the two paper labels together and it should be possible to at least work out which came first. Not sure how much it would add given my initial thought.

John

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 25, 2016, 06:13:25 AM

Just looking at examples on ebay you can see that the later label is present on later Mdina glass !

If the date can be found when the later design of label came into print it would help a great deal to narrow down dates of earlier pieces  ;)

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 25, 2016, 11:02:47 AM

In Mdina, date is not always that important. Early is desirable, but each piece is unique and needs to be judged on its own merits.
There are some ghastly early bits, there are fabulous later bits.


Art is where I can let my pidgeon-holing tendencies, need for explanations and logical progression of information, go. It's an escape from my love of science. ;D

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 25, 2016, 10:13:52 PM

Yes , I agree entirely.... but there are  clues in these  labels and if they can be used as an aid to  establish a chronological order, along with all of the other characteristics that John suggested , then its a good idea to investigate it.  Purely from a historical point of view  :)

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 26, 2016, 12:49:28 PM

I think it's perfectly safe to say that the extra word and plastic labels are later. ;D

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 26, 2016, 08:26:04 PM

The only solution is to find more examples like this ....later label .....plus date .....1985  ;D

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINTAGE-1985-MDINA-ART-GLASS-DECANTER-SIZE-6-5-BY-3-NEW-BLUE-COLOR-/181712303415?hash=item2a4ee5b537:g:WBoAAOxyOlhSs4Nc

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: glassobsessed on February 26, 2016, 09:26:44 PM

Just goes to show... without that date I would have guessed it was mid /late 70s.

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: chopin-liszt on February 27, 2016, 12:19:37 PM

Me too. Especially with that loopy script and the loads of silver chloride.  ::) :-[ ::)
I've really not seen many dates added, when it's from the '80s, at all.

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 28, 2016, 03:31:35 AM

The same signature is seen on this Mdina paperweight on ebay Germany dated 1986 !!  ::)

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Glas-Briefbeschwerer-Wolken-weis-signiert-Mdina-1986-ca-Dm-6-cm-ca-400gr/172115062528?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107083420%26meid%3D025060709a8e4b91be79b5c46edde6a3%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D172078804275

It is also shown on the base of one of my paperweights , with no date or label, shown here.

The carafe of the same shape was made at least up until c1994, I have a Maltese cookery book with one featured . Published in Malta  1994, Acknowledgements to Mdina Glass for supplying the glassware in the book !  ;)

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on February 28, 2016, 04:31:00 AM

If you look at the seller's (of the decanter/carafe above)  other items you can see lots of other Mdina...nearly all dated 1985 with the same script ....amazing !!  :o  (Search Mdina in their shop )

But it all looks fine and dandy because of the German example and my paperweight .....must have all been a bulk import from that year   :o

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 01, 2016, 04:46:35 PM

There is an 'older style' label here on a 1978 dated vase, you have to scroll down past the Sam Herman vase (if possible  ;) )


http://www.properold.com/stock/glass/

Cheers, Mike

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 08, 2016, 04:27:23 PM

This looks like the ' older style ' of paper label dated 1982.........!!

http://www.ebay.de/itm/MDINA-Fish-Head-Vase-Glasvase-signiert-datiert-Design-Michael-Harris-/381462184058?hash=item58d0eb007a:g:0DgAAOSwAL9UdHR5

Cheers, Mike :D

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 08, 2016, 05:09:11 PM

Newer style of label dated 1984 .....if my theory is correct (& it's only a theory ) the change in the paper label design took place between 1982 and 1984 . If anyone can find labels (of whichever design ) on dated and signed pieces close to these dates then please post links here , Cheers, Mike.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mdina-FISH-Head-Glas-Design-Michael-Harris-1984-signierte-Vase-Label-/301713242808?hash=item463f82bab8:m:m__r7O7shczquHHG6jiHdcA

Looking at the photos there isn't a clear date 1984 shown in the photo of the base so it could be a false lead  :o

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Baked_Beans on March 09, 2016, 04:10:31 PM

Having looked at lots of labels , I now think the transition between the older label and the newer design happened in 1985 which was the year Mr Said bought Mdina , but please correct me if I'm wrong. Please see two dated examples 1985 one with the older style of label the other with the newer design.


http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-MDINA-ART-GLASS-DECANTER-SIGNED-BY-ARTIST-MDINA-1985-51-4-BY-21-2-/121617357030?hash=item1c50f598e6

http://www.millersantiquesguide.com/items/90537/1970s-mdina-glass-lollipop-vase/

Cheers, Mike

p.s. Here's a 1983 fish vase with the older style of label .........

http://www.thegoodaygallery.com/glass/mdina-fish-glass-vase

Title: Re: Mdina paper labels ...slight differences in design .
Post by: Anne on June 20, 2017, 12:03:27 AM

Example here dated 1983 with the thinner armed cross style label. http://www.thegoodaygallery.com/glass/mdina-fish-glass-vase

HAH! Just realised it's the same link Mike posted in 2016!!!  ;D