Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Scott13 on April 05, 2016, 06:39:28 AM
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Hi, I was wondering whether this could be a LK pattern, if not , any ideas?
It has the Stuart England mark but it's very faint and I can't get an image.
It's about 19cms high.
Any help appreciated, thanks
Scott
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I think we need Nigel, ;D but it looks a bit fussy for Kny to me.
Not that I know much, cut stuff isn't my area, but this does not look like a traditional cut, so that's a good start. :)
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Hi Sue, thanks for your reply, yes, let's hope Nigel looks in sometime!
It was the non traditional cut that appealed to me and made me think of LK.
Cut glass doesn't seem very popular at the moment but I'm sure its time will come again!
Scott
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I can't see this design in either Nigel's collaboration with Jeanette Hayhurst or Charles Hajdamach's 'C20 Glass - to my eyes the design looks perhaps a little too much as though taken from subjects in nature (and I agree 'fussy') - as opposed to the more positive, bolder geometric offerings from Ludwig Kny.
Mustn't sound too dogmatic though - anything is possible.
This type of naturalistic pattern looks to have more in common with some of John Luxton's 'nature inspired' work from the 1950's - he did a variety of designs with 'floral motifs' but again, can't see this particular design in my books. Perhaps if Nigel does look in he might know if this is one of Luxton's 1950's designs.
Outside of the 1930's - 40's big name progressive and modernist cut work, the other 98% seems to have almost no appeal to collectors - which is not surprising, since it's mind blowingly boring, usually. Like anything where the image is a large part of the appeal, it's easy to get bored if what we're seeing doesn't stir the emotions or make us want to look again, and this is true of so much cut glass from the C20.
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Hi Paul
Yes definitely inspired by nature; possibly a stylistic representation of trees ( reminds me of Scots Pines, with the long curving mitre cuts representing the trunks ).
Not sure whether this will help in dating it, but, the strokes of the letter t (Stuart) appear to rise.
The reason I bought it was because of its unusual stylistic design.
I'm not really into the traditionally cut 20th century pieces either.
Thanks for your reply and for taking the time to look.
Scott
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Irene Stevens was fond of long sweeping mitre cuts, Clyne Farquarsson did simple stylised flowers and leaves.
(I don't even know if they worked for Stuart though.) Jack Lloyd did a lot of flowery intricate stuff. (Tudor and Webb-Corbett, I thingk)
I did have a decanter a long time ago that Nigel thought was a collission between Kny and somebody else
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Hi Sue
I can't say that I've heard of Jack Lloyd, just shows how superficial my knowledge of glass is!
I do however know of Irene Stevens (post war?) and Clyne Farquharson ( whose ' Leaf' vase would be a great find--preferably signed of course! ).
They both certainly produced some pretty adventurous designs.
I've no idea whether either of them ever worked for Stuart.
Your decanter--the product of a collision between Kny and someone else sounds interesting--presumably you were unable to find out anything more about it.
Many thanks
Scott
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Obviously the Board's search facility not being used again ;) It really is a storehouse of information.
On it you will find information on Jack Lloyd - his Stourbridge work is highly collectible and shows great skill.
To the best of my knowledge Irene Stevens worked and designed (from 1947 to 1957) for Webb Corbett only, and then as consultant until 1963.
Clyne Farquharson seems to have been equally loyal to Walsh from when he joined them in 1924 until the company's closure around 1951 - apparently his famous design, 'Leaf' was continued after this date under the Tudor Crystal trademark.
Ref. 'ART DECO TO POST MEDERNISM - A Legacy of British Art Deco Glass' by Nigel Benson and Jeanette Hayhurst - Text: Nigel Benson - Photography: Jeanette Hayhurst 2003.
'The Glass Of John Walsh Walsh 1850 - 1951 - Eric Reynolds - 1999.
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I meant to write collusion. I took it to London for Nigel to see, I never got it back.
It has been missappropriated - not by Nigel!
I never found out much more than that. A wall of silence surrounds it now. :(
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huh - you never came to London to see me :'( - and I would have bought you a coffee and even given you a piece of glass to take home for Michael - I know how to treat a girl ;D
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I don't think I've been to London since I met you Paul. It's donkey's years since I've been, now.
My family moved up here 4 years ago, and I hadn't been down to see them for several years either, they came up more often, travelling to London got much more difficult and far too expensive, and I didn't need to go.
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Thanks for all the info you've provided Paul.
Yes, I'll have to start using the Board's search engine more.
Sue........Collusion, that sounds even more interesting !
Many thanks
Scott
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Hi Scott,
Firstly, my gut reaction is that this is likely to be a John Luxton design, largely because of the style of design of the cutting combined with the techniques used.
However, the answer is possibly in the backstamp, since "Stuart England" had a number of versions - so which is yours??
If you are not able to photograph it (since it can be very difficult) perhaps you could describe it. Is the type face plain, or with serifs; is it on one or two lines; are there any curls, or extras to the letters, etc., etc.?
Nigel
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Hi Nigel,
From my observations the Stuart mark is sans serif, I can't see any curl at the end of Stuart and the mark is on two lines.
The crossbars of the t seem to slant upwards.
I've taken some pics which may help !
Scott
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There are one or two variations of the Stuart backstamp on the Boards 'Glass Gallery' - which you might consider are a little clearer than those just posted.
Not easy to produce good close up shots of factory marks etc. - I know as I spent a lot of time trying - a passable result can be achieved using a loupe/lens between the camera and subject, using good reflected light and a dark background, and lots of perseverance. Anyway have a look at the Glass Gallery, and see what you think
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Hi, I tried to take some better pics ( black background, head torch etc etc ! ) but to no avail.
Anyway, thanks for the hints.
I'm more than almost sure it's the mark which was used from c 1930 to 1950 ( Nigel's 'Glass of the 50s and 60s, Collector's Guide'-page 58 )
Scott
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if you read back (when you've a week or two to spare) at the various earlier Board conversations about Stuart marks, it does become apparent that there isn't a really hard and fast rule as to exactly the years when individual backstamps were used - some overlap was inevitable presumably.
Try a cheap lens between the camera and subject, and with reasonable lighting and a dark background you may be surprised at the improvement in close up quality, but as we're always saying, photographing clear glass is never easy.
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If it is of any help, I can confirm, by using Scott's first signature image of the signature with the web page set to +500% enlargement, that the mark on Scott's vase is:
Two lines;
Sans Serif;
The first "t" of "Stuart" shows definite evidence of the upward-sloping "cross bar";
The final "t" of "Stuart" has no curl;
The final "t" is aligned immediately above the "D" of "ENGLAND".
http://www.great-glass.co.uk/glass%20notes/marks-s.htm shows the marks and from my examination, I am sure that it is the one described in that web page as "acid-etched C 1920s - 1950" (but stated as "1930 - 1950" in Nigel's book).
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Hi, if you've a spare couple of minutes perhaps you could Google ' Ludwig Kny Glass '. In ' Images '
you'll see a vase and shallow dish (together) attributed to him.
They seem to have features in common with my vase.
The deeply outlined mitre cuts ( vase and shallow dish), a particulat form of stylised leaf ( dish ).
And perhaps more tellingly the horizontal cuts near the rim.
All of these features can be seen in my vase.
Any thoughts? Thanks
Scott
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It will help if you add the link Scott - not sure which you referring to.
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Sorry, I seem to have a glitch in the system and can't send links at present.
If you Google ' Ludwig Kny Glass', on ' Images' it's the first image, a vase and a shallow dish.
At least that's where it is on my screen!
Scott
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I think this is the image: saleroom.com Biddle & Webb auction 2014 (http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/biddle-and-webb/catalogue-id-srbid10003/lot-a41736c7-1afa-4a32-96c2-a3f7015cd3cb)
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I note this section in the T&C;
"Every care is taken to ensure that any statements as to authorship, attribution, origin, date, provenance are reliable and accurate, but such statements are statements of our opinion and not to be taken as statements or representations of fact."
There is absolutely no evidence for this auction lot being a Kny design.
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Not all that glisters is gold on the internet I'm afraid.
Why not say that it's Ludwig Kny if you don't know any better?? In this case the T&C's cover them (as Sue points out), in others it's likely a name to hang on an item someone wants to sell I'm afraid :o :o
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quote from Nigel ........."Why not say that it's Ludwig Kny if you don't know any better??" ............ that's just the problem - too many people who lack honesty in their descriptions - and they seem to inhabit the internet market place especially.
Ebay abounds in descriptions that are purposefully ambiguous and with very dubious name association, solely to up the price, and unfortunately ebay take no interest in correcting unreliable attributions.
not sure what ........ "Every care is taken to ensure that any statements as to authorship, attribution, origin, date, provenance are reliable and accurate" .............. would be interesting to hear what that means in this instance. :)
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Hi, I agree entirely with what's been said.
It must be virtually impossible to attribute honestly an unsigned, unrecorded, oldish piece (my vase perhaps being a good example) to a particular designer or maker.
I really don't mind that my vase hasn't the cachet of a LK or JL 😩.
I bought it because of its refreshingly different design--LK or JL never crossed my mind.
It was only when I started to do a bit of digging that I thought it could conceivably be a LK ( or JL ) piece.
Many thanks to you all for taking the time to reply--much appreciated.
And thanks to KevinH for identifying the backstamp for me and for posting the Link.
Scott
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I would personally be more than happy with Nigel's opinion that it is a John Luxton design. :)
Nigel knows his stuff and would not give an opinion if he had doubts, without clearly clarifying those doubts.
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perhaps I've missed something, but my rather less than 20/20 vision suggests to me that the cut design on Scott's vase is not the same as shown on the link posted by Kevin. :-\ - I would also be more than happy with any opinion from Nigel regarding this particular design as being more likely to have its origin in John Luxton.
The cut pattern shown on the vase and oval tray in Kevin's link is a design which appears in Nigel/Jeanette's publication - page 15 - the centre vase in photo 54 - although I'm a little confused Nigel as to it's connection with the vases either side of it, which look to be a different pattern, and it looks to be those either side of the centre vase that are the subject of the caption. In the booklet there is no attribution given for any of the three vases.
One possible reason for being over keen to attribute some of these floral based designs to Kny, is that in the '20s he specialized, apparently, in mitred cuts to represent stylized leaves - which were often outlined in fine v-grooves.
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Hi, although the designs are different, there are horizontal cuts present in both vases ( possibly to link the tops of the floral sprays ). To eliminate any confusion I'm talking about my vase and the one on the link🙂
It was this that made me think that they could have had the same designer ?
I would also be more than happy to accept Nigel's opinion 🙂
Scott
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To answer your query about a connection between the three vases on page 15 of the Art Deco to Post Modernism catalogue Paul. There is no connection. I'm guessing that when Jeanette took the photos she felt that the three worked well together as an image, as well as falling into a timeline. This often happens in books and we can spend hours ponding only to realise it's what material that was available at the time which dictates these things ;)
No pressure here then? Wipes brow anxiously....and explains.....in an increasingly dry voice, err, err, well, hmm, ah, yes, well I think that, that hmm, yes, that the vase shows stylistic similarities with the work of JL rather than that of LK.
Of course failing catalogue entries that can be used to verify this, it's still only, perhaps, an informed hunch............... ;) :)
Cheers, Nigel
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:)
As I said, Nigel would completely clarify any doubts whatsoever. ;D
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appreciate the help Nigel, and thanks for taking the time to explain the booklet photos. :)
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Now, where's that 'Like' button....... ;D
Nigel
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Hi, sorry for putting you on the spot--I could tell from your reply that you were under immense pressure 😂.
If you say that my vase is stylistically more JL than LK; I'm more than happy 😃.
Many thanks for taking the time and trouble to help--really appreciated.
Scott
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I strongly suspect Nigel was exercising his sense of humour to convey his meaning accurately. ;D
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Hi Sue, I knew he was joking--his sense of humour is very similar to mine--perhaps it was the wrong smiley face 😀
Scott
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Your smilies are just empty rectangles on my screen, I'm afraid :-[
(I've got adblockers on and I don't update my pc with new thingumywotsits because I've discovered that's another way of stopping tons of unwanted stuff appearing. I get empty black boxes instead of adverts, it's great!)
As much as anything, I'm just showing off that I know and am very fond of Nigel. ;D
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huh - and I thought you were fond of me ;)............ I'm not very good with all these modern thingumywotsits - are adblockers the same as betablockers Sue :)
Scott's smilies appear as small blank boxes for me too....
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And Scott's black boxes stay as black boxes if I use my Moderator wizardry and view the text in "modify" mode.
What ya using Scott? Wingdings or something?
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I'm afraid I'm only able to brown-nose one person per comment Paul. :-*
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Hi, no wingdings--just Apple's Smileys--can't seem to be able to use your Smileys, so for the time being it'll have to be--!!??
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or colon and bracket for smiley or colon and reverse bracket for sad....... which I notice automatically convert into smile or sad when I post - thus :)
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Of course, I should have said 'our' Smileys !
Anyway, let's try--and to be sure--!! :) :) :)
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Now that wasn't too difficult Scott--was it ? ;D ;D
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Adblockers and betablockers both reduce blood pressure Paul!
(I'm a bit slow, sometimes. :-[)
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;D :-*
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ok, now I'm sorted with you, I should say;
Thanks, Scott, for your good natured contributions and I'm pleased you've got somewhere with your unusual bit of Art Cut glass. :) And thanks for showing it!