Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Scott13 on May 28, 2016, 12:56:43 PM
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Hi, do you think these are Arts and Crafts?
They certainly have features often associated with AC pieces- green colouring, wavy rims, vertical ribbing and the trumpet shape.
Bases and ribs formed using a mould; the stretching ( swung? ) and rims by hand.
Very grimy when bought- took ages to clean the accumulated dirt from their toes.
Apologies if you happen to be eating :)
The wear on their bases ( the outer rings-the inner is concave ) ranges from pebble smoothness to small chips ; with a myriad of scratches and minute nicks in-between
A few impurities and seeds in the glass.
Ht--27.5 cms ( nearly 11" )
Wt--quite heavy, 450gms ( each)
I can't find that much info on AC glass ( other than stained )
No shortage with regard to furniture, ceramics etc etc - but glass, it seems to me at any rate, has been generally overlooked :(
Thanks for looking
Scott
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these vases may have some age, but they don't strike me as being particularly of the period you suggest. Unlike art deco, for example, Arts & Crafts is not a style which is easy to define, and can vary depending on whether you're from any one of half a dozen different European countries.
Arts & Crafts as a fashion seems to arise somewhere around the same time as art nouveau, and stylistically carries much of that influence through the last 20 years of the C19, but doesn't look to have fared so well into the C20 as art nouveau did, which eventually gave way to art deco around 1925.
Regret I don't know about the Continent, but in the U.K. Arts & Crafts was a movement given much popularity by the art guilds which were associated with names like Ashbee, Morris and Ruskin, often defined by very simple lines and antique shapes.
If you look at Morris's designs, and very late C19 examples of Clutha glass, this should give some idea of the simple yet distinctive style - at least for the U.K. Another closely related style is the Glasgow school of art.
I've deleted the last part of my original words, since you've already commented that these would have been mould blown - but my opinion is that these wouldn't have been swung. The ornate rims may have been finished by hand. My opinion is that none of the features you mention are arts & crafts decoration especially, and I suspect these are well into the first third of the C20.
However, let's see what others think :)
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I think they are swung. I also think they are American, perhaps Fenton
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Hi,
They certainly lack the sophistication of Christopher Dresser designed pieces.
It was however their simple, almost rustic ( but retaining a certain elegance ) form, which made me think of the Arts and Crafts movement.
Anyway, they certainly weren't made by a machine :)
I've looked and looked and looked again but I've been unable to find any mould seams.
The vases are a bit wonky/asymmetrical; their hts and rim widths also differ.
Their bases however are an exact match.
I hope the above makes a bit of sense :)
Is swinging a vase, a relatively new technique-which might confirm that they're not as old as I thought they were.
Scott
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Swinging a vase is an old technique. They were certainly machine pressed initially. My guess would be early 20th C. You made find them in carnival variations. I had a quick look but couldn't find them.
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am sure Christine is correct re the swung aspect - if you shove swung vases into the pc you will come up with lots of shape and style related vases - not the same, but with sufficient similarity to make the connection.
Would also agree that these ribbed and waisted shapes are seen occasionally in carnival glass.
Swedish bone vases are a good example of swung vases.
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Anyway, they certainly weren't made by a machine :)
I've looked and looked and looked again but I've been unable to find any mould seams.
The vases are a bit wonky/asymmetrical; their hts and rim widths also differ.
Their bases however are an exact match.
I hope the above makes a bit of sense :)
The mould seam on the bottom is circular. You're standing on it.
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Hi, first of all thanks to you all for taking the time to look and also for your objective replies- much
appreciated.
On reflection I think I asked the unanswerable - " do you think these are Arts and Crafts ? "
I'm afraid it seems there just isn't enough info on AC run-of-the-mill glass, to enable any informed
judgments to be made.
Seems a good opportunity for someone to write a book :)
I haven't been able to find the Carnival version but I'll keep looking- I'll also check out Fenton.
Now I know they were swung-I thought they might have been.
Ivo, I did see the base plate seam but I thought Paul meant the vertical seams one often sees.
Many thanks :)
Scott
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in fact Paul did mean the vertical ones :-[ - he's not anywhere near as clever as Ivo or Christine :)
You're probably part way correct in suggesting there's a lack of Arts & Crafts glass .................. as a style it's more frequently encountered in the form of furniture, silver, and perhaps some hand made copper work, and it's overshadowed in the U.K. by the far greater volume and better understood styles of art nouveau and Glasgow School.
Small handcraft guilds seem to have been all the rage in the closing years of the C19.
Do have a look at Dresser's 'Clutha' designs - he may have already been speaking to Ruskin, and between them they tried to formulate a set of rules which would create simple yet functional lines - apparently the Clutha pieces were in some part based on historic shapes. These guys obviously had it in for the ornate and flowery Victorian decoration - Ruskin hated cut glass it seems and Dresser probably thought we should all go back to Roman simplicity.
Also have a look at Philip Webb's designs for glass made by Powell's - again very simple lines lacking the flowery ornament of other contemporary Victorian fashion, and probably a very early attempt at departing from art nouveau. He was a big mate of Morris and they had some business connections I think.
You can see some of these pieces in the V. & A. in London - but of course you may not be in the area - so try their on line catalogues.
Bottom line is almost certainly that you will never find any original A. & C. glass yourself - probably as rare as hen's teeth. :)
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Hi, I'm always on the lookout for Clutha glass.
I thought I'd found a piece a few months ago, but it turned out to be 1930s Hartley Wood.
Kick up base, broken pontil mark, streaks, a few bubbles, but no aventurine.
It has an Arts and Crafts look about it.
Can't say I was too disappointed :)
As for finding an original AC piece--for all we know there could be mutant hens wandering about with full sets of pearly whites.
Always the optimist ;D
Scott
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It is my understanding that AC is always, by definition, hand made and unique, a production of one-offs.
This vase is swung, meaning the basic shape was preformed in a mould and then swung or pulled out. If you do a google image for swung vase you get to see different styles of this manufacturing technique.
It also explains why there will always be differences in a pair, while the foot remains the same.
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Hi Ivo
Yes, I can see where you're coming from.
Christine did say that they would have been machine pressed initially; which isn't really in keeping with a movement, that began as a reaction to the effects of industrialisation. :)
Thanks for the info
Scott
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rather than machine pressed, initially, I would have thought mould blown/dip mould - in other words the blowing iron would need to be attached already in order to increase the size and then it could be swung/pulled, and this couldn't be the done if it was being pressed in a machine.
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They were pressed and then swung using a gadget
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thanks - obviously not my day.
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Hi,
I'm not sure whether this is relevant, but the interior of the vase has essentially the same pattern (ribs) as the exterior, but in reverse.
Scott
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Usually, when some of the pattern is visible on the inside this indicates not pressed in the usual sense - what do you think Christine?
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managed to get a few minutes yesterday in the glass gallery at the V. & A., and they do have a cabinet, although not particularly big, showing A.&C. glass ..... and Clutha material from Glasgow does figure prominently................ nothing to do with Cluthra by the way, which was a States invention in the 1920s I think. Webb's designs which were made by Powell's also there, plus some odds and sods from some of the larger Stourbridge factories.
But, no pieces like this one ;D ;)
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Hi, thanks for looking but are you sure, really sure, I mean absolutely sure, that there wasn't just one of the odds and sods, that looked just a little bit like mine? ;D
Seriously, I now know that they aren't Arts and Crafts - my question has been answered.
Many thanks for your input, really appreciated, and thanks again for having a look at the V&A's Arts and Crafts glass. :)
Scott
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have to admit that I had ulterior motive for being in the museum - I was killing time waiting for two other folk as we had tickets for the Botticelli exhibition.
Trouble is that whenever I look at their collection is almost make me want to give up glass entirely - they have mind blowing pieces and makes our very humble stuff seem almost not worth bothering with. :(
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Hi, somehow I thought you'd have had an ulterior motive :)
I have a very superficial knowledge of art but wasn't it Ruskin who drew attention to the quality of Botticelli's work.
I'm sure he'd have done the same for my vases ;D
You can't give up- you've got the collector gene :)
Scott
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Sorry about this thread hijack but ...
Paul S said: ... they [the V&A] have mind blowing pieces and makes our very humble stuff seem almost not worth bothering with
Well maybe not everything! They have (or had many years ago) a "Stourbridge" jug in amber herringbone pattern over opal with a single amber "rustic" handle and a deeply frilled rim with one frill formed as a spout. I have a pair of vases which are identical in pattern and colour but my vases (8.5 inch height) each have two handles and the rim frills are not squidged into a spout. So I reckon my vases are better than the humble jug in the V&A. One of my vases shown here (http://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-2389)
;D
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wouldn't worry about the hijack - I think this one fell off the rails some way back. good to know, then, that here on the Board we're still aiming high Kevin, and that we can hold our own with the museum ;) There are few specific pieces in the gallery that I recall, it all looks so striking - some of the pate de vere with lizards etc., and the Daum and Lalique plus some cut glass, but have to say I don't remember seeing the jug you mention ............ perhaps they didn't think it was up to their usual standard.
regret I'm no expert on Ruskin - he may well have commented on Botticelli in the way you mention - perhaps this is mentioned somewhere in his 'Stones of Venice' do you think? Botticelli definitely a genius and warrants adulation - the set piece of his Birth of Venus must have been hijacked as many times as any other historic image........... unfortunately, the two most well known of his works ... Primavera and Birth of Venus are prevented by the Uffizi from leaving Florence - I nearly asked for a refund.
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Impressive- one (or in your case two) of Stourbridge's best- and to have their provenance courtesy of the V&A !
Thanks for showing the pic. :)
Scott
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Kev does have Stourbridge in quotes... I would probably place his vases and this jug in Bohemia. Museums are not infallible by a long chalk.
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Hi Christine,
I never seem to pick up on inverted commas-I'll have to be more observant in future :)
Scott
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Sorry about this thread hijack but ...
Paul S said: Well maybe not everything! They have (or had many years ago) a "Stourbridge" jug in amber herringbone pattern over opal with a single amber "rustic" handle and a deeply frilled rim with one frill formed as a spout. I have a pair of vases which are identical in pattern and colour but my vases (8.5 inch height) each have two handles and the rim frills are not squidged into a spout. So I reckon my vases are better than the humble jug in the V&A. One of my vases shown here (http://www.yobunny.org.uk/glassgallery/displayimage.php?pos=-2389)
;D
I always look at their glass and think my collection is ok :) (there are many pieces they have that are hideous although obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder) and also I notice any items they and other museum collections have that are damaged ... which is quite a lot. Makes me feel so much better (justifies my buying the pieces I do).
m
Paul, envious you got to see the exhibition.