Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on June 04, 2016, 05:42:06 PM
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in the light of Phelps Warren's comments (1981) that ..."The piggin is essentially an Irish vessel; it does not appear that it was ever made in England." - then this post should be in British & Irish, but not entirely sure so have posted here, but the Mods. can of course move if wished.
Rather crude and basic cutting - not remotely likely to make you think of Ireland, but the depression under the base is wide and shallow and together with the amount of wear, then might suggest 1830 - 50, but for all I know could be later.
Those examples for table use, were apparently larger than this one - over 7 inches (175 mm plus) is not uncommon, but Phelps Warren also discusses miniatures down at about 4" (c. 100 mm), which is the exact same height as this one.
Definitely not lead glass, and one or two seeds with single small black stone.
All thoughts welcome - is this a miniature piggin, a prentice piece, or made for some other size-related purpose - an unusual punch ladle for example.
Thanks for looking.
Ref. 'Irish Glass' (Revised 1981 edition) - Phelps Warren
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Definitely a piggin.
I have a photo of a Waterford Piggin, taken in the Ulster Museum of Belfast. Not the best quality pic, as it was through thick glass and I had to deal with their lighting conditions and no flash.
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thanks Sue - now that's without doubt a period piece - step/prismatic cutting, saw tooth rim, and star cut base.......... much better looking than mine. But glad you're convinced my is a piggin. :)
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Yours is much more dainty, pretty and elegant.
That is just a lump with lots of sharp bits.
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Sue, you're a philistine :P - I see your one as representing typical Irish cutting from 1820 - 30, although I'm not expert enough to know it's a Waterford piece - most likely lead glass, although we don't know its size.
The point about mine is that it's so uncharacteristic of Irish cutting, it makes me wonder why. These things are so thin on the ground that it's difficult to make much in the way of reliable comments about them - other than the apparent fact that they were only ever made in Ireland, and that usually they should have cutting representative of the late Georgian/Regency period.
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For peopl new to "piggin", see also this thread from "dinklepip" in 2012 (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45844.msg256612.html#msg256612)
And ... there is a current eBay listing for a set of four (!) with basic horizontal cuts. See: "4 antique cut glass piggin bowls (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4-antique-cut-glass-piggin-bowls-/252386707722)"
And ... a past auction lot (http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/fonsie-mealy-auctioneers/catalogue-id-srfons10007/lot-760d22ab-33d0-4ccb-aaeb-a43a0103160a) for an example with toothed cutting to the rim but otherwise entirely plain.
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I know a small amount about piggins.
Essentially the handle has to be angled away from the body. The one here is not.
If it isn't, then it is more than likely made out of another item, usually a decanter. This was done by unscrupulous folks who realised that piggins were rare and certainly for some time sort after and therefore expensive. It was worth making up something that looked right, but it wouldn't necessarily fool specialist collectors - however there is always (at that time you understand) a 'mug punter' who would be fooled.
As a result of this assertion - given to me by the famous collector Michael Parkington - I would be very suspicious of the 'piggin' in question .....sorry.
Cheers, Nigel
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no need at all to be sorry Nigel :) Although I didn't mention being aware that curved handles were a standard feature of genuine piggins, like you I was a little concerned about the straight one on this piece. I apologise for being a 'mug punter' and promise I won't do it again. ;D ;)
In fact the curve in the handle is really a very practical curve - not so easy to hold when straight.
Have to say that I don't know how genuine piggins were made, but looking again at the profile of this handle I can certainly visualize that mine could well have been cut out of a small decanter or other similar shaped item, and the basic simple style of cutting is not what you'd expect to see on a period Irish piggin.
Anyone want a cheap vaguely/possible/but unlikely piggin? ;)
thanks Nigel for passing on Michael Parkington's wisdom....... looking at the two catalogues for his sales in 1997/98, am I correct in saying that there weren't any in his collection - or were they items that didn't go to auction, and formed part of his very generous donation to Broadfield House.?
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There looks like an awful lot of work on this one and it's handle is straight though
http://scottishantiques.com/piggin2?filter_name=piggin#.V2Mb4rsrLFj
I wonder if it might have been perhaps used for something else and not a piggin then?
It looks too intricate to have been a cut decanter doesn't it?
m
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would agree m, that one does look to have a lot of cut work which you'd assume suggests it was a purpose made piggin, but who knows :-\
I think much of the point that Nigel was making was............. those with curved/hooked handles are without doubt purpose made - whereas those with straight handles could well have been cut from another object of approximately similar size.
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Thanks, Nigel, for your fascinatinating and illuminating contribution here. :)
I won't be a mug punter about them again either. ;D
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I think much of the point that Nigel was making was............. those with curved/hooked handles are without doubt purpose made - whereas those with straight handles could well have been cut from another object of approximately similar size.
Yes, I think that's about right Paul.
The problem with a rule of thumb like that is that they'll always be exceptions that will catch us out :o
Parkington did have at least one piggin in his collection, as it was used for my tutorial with him ;) :) I'm guessing it ended up in the gift to the Museum as you suggest Paul.
BTW - there ain't no mug punters on these here pages. Just them that wants to learn :)
Cheers, Nigel