Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => British & Irish Glass => Topic started by: Paul S. on June 12, 2016, 02:52:34 PM
-
Have had this uranium piano foot/insulator for several years, and it was included in a photograph I posted a while back, my only comment then was that it had a uranium content. Purely by chance I happened to look closer at the under side and on the base of one of the lobes - albeit feint - there is an unmistakable JD and anchor, which I hope can be seen in the attached pix - no lozenge that I can see, and probably not enough space anyway. According to Raymond Slack ..."all articles bearing the JD and anchor plus a diamond Registration mark belong to the period 1873 - 6."
During this four year period, there occurs the best known of all piano rests - the mammoth's foot Rd. 282260 Registered on 12th May 1874 - and this is from the Derbyshire factory. On the 2nd September the previous year Derbyshire had Registered another rest, Rd. 275756 - we may well have had an example of this on the Board, I can't now remember, but just for interest's sake I've attached National Archive images of both.
During John Derbyshire's anchor/JD trade mark period (1873 - 76) I can find Board of Trade Registration details for only two piano insulators - 275756 and 282260 as mentioned above............. I'm aware that Neil says there are three piano feet from John Derbyshire in this period, but I can find only two that appear in the lists of Registered designs, in the books.
Might it be the case that two were Registered (Nos. as above), and one wasn't (this design I've now attached)? Of course, in looking through the books it's possible I've missed seeing a listing for another JD insulator, but having scanned through the Kew images I can still only find images for two.
Unfortunately, it gets complicated further, I think, because..............
In a post from Christine ....... http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/thumbnails.php?album=13 page one, left of centre line, there is a rest which appears identical to my unregistered example here. Christine's example is linked to a Davidson catalogue dated 1928, and quoted as being from that factory.
In view of the trade mark on my unregistered foot, there's no doubt that it started life as a product of John Derbyshire's factory, probably some time between 1873 and 1876, but the apparent absence of an image in the archives etc. suggests it may not have been Registered officially. Plus............. bearing in mind the capacity Davidson had for buying up other factories moulds, is it possible that they acquired JD's moulds, and as with their reproduction of competitors designs over subsequent decades, they also churned out this piano rest that came from JD originally?
the mammoth's foot rest is on the next page.
I may simply have missed seeing this rest somewhere - in which case I may have it all wrong. :)
-
the mammoth's foot insulator which has, incidentally, been shown in the flesh by Roy, recently.
-
How strong are piano insulators?
I'm a little tempted to try to track some down to put under my piano, but it weighs an awful lot, even if it is just an upright. It has a cast iron frame inside and it's in a very heavy wood.
The last time I did move it, I didn't trust the removal firm, but got in a specialist piano mover. I warned them that it was a Bluthner innards in a Welmar casing, and that it was extremely heavy.
They sent a couple of weedy little blokes, :D who had to call the office to ask for reinforcements. ;D
I'd really worry that I'd merely mash the insulators. :-\
-
one assumes they were successful at supporting pianos in a variety of weights Sue judging by the quantity we still see - I think Ivo has commented that they were still being used into the middle of the C20. They vary in thickness, but are as much as two or three centimetres or more in thickness, and remember that as there are four feet to a piano, then the entire weight of the joanna is presumably taken equally in each of the four insulators. I doubt that you'd break them. :)
But of course first find you insulators. P.S. ask Christine for some - she seems to have plenty and don't think she has a piano ;D
-
Christine already has all the insulators I have found so far. ;D
But I will have to move the piano soon, so it would be a good time to try to get it up onto insulators when I have a team assembled here shifting it.
It does have brass wheels under the feet, so it would actually be sitting on 4 very small areas, almost like a stiletto heel, giving rise to huge compression. ???
-
An interesting piano insulator, Paul, whose attribution is in absolutely no doubt. Thank you for showing it.
I don't know of any other pix showing a similar insulator with the JD anchor mark.
Fred.
-
thanks Fred - the mark on this one almost escaped my notice - just a second or so with the light reflecting on the base that brought it to my attention. In the JD/anchor period, are you with Neil in suggesting there are three insulators from this factory, or might I be correct thinking there are only two?
Sue - you would of course need four rests all of the same design, otherwise the piano might wobble. Had you considered the easier option of four pieces of 25mm plywood/chipboard each 100 mm square, and with a drill and something like a 30mm spade bit, you could create a circular pontil depression in the centre of each, for the castor to sit in. With the plywood having a larger footprint, you'd be less likely to damage the flooring than using glass insulators, and guaranteed no chance of breaking the glass.
-
TNA online summary, Thompson, Slack, and Neil only mention two piano insulators in their lists of John Derbyshire design registrations.
The RD 282260 uranium insulator recently shown by Roy definitely had both the JDanchor mark and the appropriate registry date lozenge.
I think it is significant that Neil does not have a photo of an example of John Derbyshire’s RD 275756 piano insulatorat https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshire-brothers-designs-by-date/derbyshire-brothers-1873-1874
and, so far I am aware, I have never seen an pix of an actual example, but I would imagine that such an example would most probably carry both the JDanchor mark and the appropriate registry date lozenge.
It would seem, therefore, that yours does not resemble the RD 275756 shape but is indeed a rare (or even, so far, unique) example of a ‘third’ JD piano insulator design which is, as you suggest, previously undocumented. Congratulations on your discovery.
Potentially another museum piece?
Fred.
-
thanks Fred. I knew I had seen some words from Neil in which he commented that JD produced three Registered piano feet - see reply No. 14 to this oldish thread re insulators ... http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,45100.msg251771.html#msg251771 .
I was hoping that Neil would respond to this current thread and offer some explanation to my query as to whether it was two or three JD designs.
With the greatest of respect to Neil - who has probably forgotten more about pressed glass than I will ever know - I have a feeling that his 'three' could well be a typo, and as you and I have said, there are in fact only two Registered JD insulators - plus the possibility now of this new one being an unregistered design.
As you say, Neil certainly discusses only two Registered insulators on his Derbyshire page.
However, my query remains ......... is this newly found apparently unregistered JD insulator, which appears identical in design to the example shown on Christine's site and quoted as being a Davidson pattern, a pressing by George Davidson of an original JD insulator, and proof of Davidson having acquired JD moulds?? Of the various other factories' moulds that GD acquired, do we know if Davidson would have removed the original owner's trade marks etc. (from the mould) before use, or did they simply use the moulds without any alteration??
I'm surprised, and would have thought that by now someone would have found an example of JD's insulator Rd. 275756.
This uranium JD insulator will probably stay with me for the time being, but will eventually go to a good home I'm sure. :)
-
Re. Christine’s ‘Davidson’ uranium glass piano insulator:
There are masses of unmarked piano insulators listed on the various online auction sites in almost every conceivable shape and colour but, without distinctive identifying marks or features, it would seem to be impossible to offer a firm opinion as to their manufacturing source.
Davidson’s 1928 catalogue certainly shows a piano stand/[insulator] (small size 405, large size 400) with a shape similar to your John Derbyshire example – see
http://www.20thcenturyglass.com/glass_encyclopedia/glass_catalogues/davidsonglass_catalogues/davidsonglass_catalogue1928-10.htm
though the design does not appear to be registered. The catalogue gives no indication of the colours available.
I’ve been back through all my reference photos of pre-1910 registered and unregistered Davidson designs, and the only example I have in plain uranium glass (as opposed to their primrose pearline glass with its yellow uranium glass base colour) is a single pattern 242 basket in yellow-green uranium glass – see photo.
The Stewart’s “Davidson Glass – A History” shows three pieces of uranium glass from the 1919-1939 period on page 29 (a #269 round dish, a #279 vase, and a #695 round dish) but the colour looks to be really yellow (or even golden yellow) rather than yellow-green.
Rather like designs for salts and lots of other pieces of domestic utility glassware, many manufacturers of pressed glass items churned out a whole range of generic designs that bore uncanny resemblances to the designs of their competitors, presumably without any real fear of prosecution for breach of copyright. Any unmarked piece, unless it has a unique identifying feature pointing to its attribution, can surely only be described as ‘in the style of..’ (a getout phrase much beloved by auction houses).
Christine’s uranium glass piano stand may well have a shape similar that of that shown in the Davidson 1928 catalogue, but I feel that a Davidson attribution can be no more than conjecture (especially in view of the colour).
Fred.
-
My insulator is unmarked (I've checked) and yes I've made an assumption, but I would argue the colour does not rule Davidson out (the thicker the yellow uranium glass, the more green is observed in my experience).
I have three Davidson non-pearline yellow uranium pieces (and some green ones)
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1434
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1281
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=908
Paul can you measure your insulator please
-
this insulator is noticeably wider at the base than the top - a truncated shape - and measurements are..........
diameter at top....... 90mm
diameter at base........... 98mm
height ........... 45mm
and in view of the lack of wear inside the cavity where a castor would sit, am assuming it hasn't seen service for the purpose for which it was intended. :)
-
Nice one Paul
I just checked my uranium ones but different shape.
Roy
-
My insulator is the same size as yours Paul. Bernard will be turning in his grave at you measuring old English glass in mm!!!
-
thanks Christine - it does appear there is a good probability both are the same design and from the same source, originally - which looks to be JD.
I was educated at a time when imperial ruled the roost, but spent my working life dealing with products that were measured mostly in metric, so I had the best of both worlds, and switching from one to the other isn't a problem. I'd find it difficult saying 3 and 36/64ths inches instead of 90 mm ;D
Assume you have really looked at the underside of yours for even the faintest of marks.
-
Absolutely nothing except muck :-[ . Interestingly, mine has cooling wrinkles on the top, while your has them on the bottom
-
I've picked up an example of this insulator today in a standard green colour. There is no JD mark, though maybe their moulds were sold on after one or more of their financial blowouts?
Paul, when I was referring to 3 JD piano foot designs, I was probably adding the 1877 bulls head example as the third. It was made at the same works, though by then they were renamed to Regent Road Glass Works
-
thanks for the explanation Neil.