Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: Baked_Beans on June 18, 2016, 06:31:08 AM
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I bought this in a charity shop for 9.99 pounds and I think it's a genuine 18th century spirit bottle.
The height is 9.25 inches tall and 5.25 inches wide at the base. Made from soda glass which has quite a few white deposits/seeds inside.
Not much age scratching to the base but could have been in a 'grog box' as a very nice gentleman on facebook suggested.
The pontil mark to the base has been roughly ground but not polished . I have seen this on the base of other bottles / decanters from the same period on the internet.
The glass was partly blown and then dipped again hence the ring at the foot of the neck (as I was informed from my facebook post). I'm not sure for how long this dipping technique for bottles was used.
Whitefriars described this shape (with a different shaped stopper ) as Spanish but where they made in other parts of Europe at that time ?
The stopper fits perfectly and has some good age to it as I have shown in the photos.
Confirmation that this dates from c 1750 would be fab.!
A similar example can be seen here with a different cut pattern .........
http://scottishantiques.com/georgian-table-glass/decanters-carafes?product_id=5099#.V2Tk4LgrLIV
Thanks for looking ;D
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Pics. of stopper...........
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The Scottishantiques one you linked to looks well researched, well made and well priced. You' re making this an easy day for us!
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Thanks Ivo,
It's just when you buy something (like this) for 10 pounds there is a certain amount of disbelief that creeps in ;)
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very nice Mike, good find for a tenner.
As you say, this particular double-dipping leaves the visible ring at the lower part of the neck where the second layer of glass come up to - often called half-post or German half-post (where it's alleged to have been first used). Suggestion seems to be that on the earliest of examples the second layer only came half way up the bottle, but never seen one like that. When I first saw this effect I thought the neck was inserted, but it certainly isn't.
As a production method it has its origins somewhere on the Continent of Europe around 1720/30, and was still being used in the States on a type of bottle they call a Pitkin Flask in the 1830s, but I think it had ceased being made in Europe before then.
Not to be confused with ordinary dip mould production (single gather). The date you suggest is as good as anything.
No idea as to the Spanish suggestion - when you say W/Fs, where in particular is that information from? Can't see a reference in McConnell for that origin - but then so much of C18 glass innovation comes from Bohemia/Germany that other origins may get overshadowed.
Meant to say............ a cautionary note - there's been some problems in recent years with repro half-post work, so be careful if you're paying big bucks.. but not of course if you're only paying a tenner ;)
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Thanks Paul for the info. on the half-post method ....very interesting & informative !
It was Wolfie who pointed out the Spanish reference to this hexagonal shape on facebook.
Harry Powell sketched glass in various museums throughout Europe to inspire his 'Glasses with Histories' range . There is one of his sketches on page 273 of the Museum of London book on Whitefriars Glass. The sketch shows three spirit bottles , one of which is hexagonal , under the heading of Spanish. James Powell & Sons produced their own six sided decanter based on this Spanish design. It looks very similar to this example but with a different shaped stopper.
Thanks very much again Paul , & for the warning about repros... :D
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Close up of ground pontil mark to base and various marks around the inside of the rim to the very top ...
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thanks Mike for the info on the Powell/Spanish reference - as you say he did a lot of travelling around, copying and sketching in various places - he was very keen on some historic designs I believe, and good to have the provenance on the Board for future. I have the smaller Leslie Jackson book on W/Fs which does give some overview of Powell's interest in such material, but not the larger volume you mention.
In the various essays on Continental glass - in Jackson - it may be of interest to quote this author's comments on page 44, under the heading of Spanish, and written with regard to a particular tumbler Harry had sketched in 1912........... ""Although described by Harry as 'Spanish' it is now known that many pieces formerly called Spanish were imported there from Bohemia, and this tumbler is now described as Bohemian, mid 18th century.""
I've no idea if similar comments are made in the other book.
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Thanks Paul for pointing that out. Here is a pic. of a Powell version.......
http://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/Lot/?sale=DA100914&lot=1016&id=274277
My example is wider at the base so if it was made using a dip mould it would be very difficult to extract it. Also is this ground pontil mark a feature of glass from the 1750's or would a snapped off , heat treated mark be more likely ?
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it's true that often these dip moulds would have a slight taper from shoulder to base, to help with extracting the part blown gather, so I'd assume if there was a reverse taper then yes, it might make extraction difficult, unless the mould consisted of more than one part. I'd assume this would be evident if you can find a seam (or two).
Don't think they were heat treating pontil scars in the mid C18 ............ not really my area, but would have thought either a snapped scar, a crude finish such as yours, or on better quality items a ground/polished depression. In a Bohemian rural village cooperative of workers they weren't perhaps too bothered about finesse :) - you won't find matching Nos. on such pieces either.
The pontil scar indicates that the item has been held on the pontil rod in order to finish the top, but regret unsure of how they managed that.
Big auction houses have in house experts - lesser houses probably rely more on books for provenance and attribution. W. & W. don't provide any provenance for their attribution, although I'd suggest there's no doubt about the Powell repro Roman wines - there are a number of different shapes shown in Jackson all showing these horizontal bands of honeycomb faceting. It's possible the 'Spanish' decanters are shown in the other book.
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Thanks Paul,
There are some six sided decanters here in the 1940 cat..also in Museum of London book......
http://www.whitefriars.com/catalogues/contents.php?id=764
There is a seam line, on this example, right across the base which I hadn't noticed before so that explains that one. ;)
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I'm envious if you have the bigger book - bit too pricey for me when I was looking.
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I doubt if you could buy a copy for less than 100 quid these days, but it's a beautiful book and such an easy read. Well worth it and makes you very keen on all things Whitefriars !
I do love those six sided decanters all of a sudden , especially the fully cut version ! ;)