Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: vanmann on July 17, 2016, 08:17:15 PM
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Any ideas please on origin of these bowls which I assume are wine glass coolers or rinsers. 12 cms diameter x 8.5 cms tall with a ground base. They have a very strong reaction to UV light so I am guessing Uranium content.
Are they likely to be Victorian/Edwardian in date? I would be very grateful for any suggestions of date and maker. I have a set of 6. Thanks in advance for any help
John
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I'd suggest rinsers is probably the more correct term, and unusual to have a set of six - it's uncommon to see pre 1900 examples in multiples of more than two or three - like anything made of glass, casualties happen. Having said that, always possible that in a large household where place settings were frequently greater than six, then larger numbers would have been the norm.
I think John Walsh Walsh were still making sets in the 1940's (not uranium though) which surprised me - so a big mis-conception to think they occurred in the C18 and C19 only.
I have a single example in a more or less opaque jade coloured uranium which I tend to think of as second half C19 - but my best guess for this transparent type of uranium would be the first third of the C20, although dating uranium is not my strong point, and someone like Christine may have a better idea of dating this sort of uranium green.
Regret I've no idea as to origin, which will almost certainly remain unknown. Intrigued to know how you came by six - are you able to say?
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Thanks for your reply Paul, I spotted them at boot sale this morning and was told that they were probably "French Breakfast Bowls" !!!
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We were in Traquair the other day - a Scottish castle still in its original state. There they had a table set for 20 or so, each with a glass rinser. The laird had refurbished the house after the great exhibition, so these rinsers were from the 3rd quarter of the 19th century.
the essence of these rinsers is that the house does not have separate glasses for red and white wine, so between courses they need rinsed.
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I would suggest the shade of green pushes them into or nearer the 20th C. Victorian uranium glass seems to be either yellower or more intense green. This is not fact, merely observation
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Thank you Christine for your observations, I am attaching a new photo which gives a better representation of the intensity of the reaction to UV. Not sure if this is more indicative of date.
Thanks for your help John
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The UV reaction is irrelevant and only varies a bit little (how much glow rather than the intensity of the glow) with uranium concentration, which doesn't seem to be particularly era related
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Ok, thanks
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I'm surprised at the origin John - quite remarkable, and possibly a first to find six at such a venue - but it's also true that some of the descriptive uses that boot fair sellers come up with can be very amusing and imaginative.
quote from Ivo ............... "the house does not have separate glasses for red and white wine, so between courses they need rinsed." Seems a paradox that if you live in a 'castle' your etiquette and finances haven't quite stretched to buying the correct glasses. ;)
Presumably this comment implies they used a green glass for white (Rhenish) wine, and a clear (white) glass for red wine - the green glass often being a uranium green.
some examples exist with a single lip, and it appears legitimate to also describe them as 'wine glass coolers'. Attached is a picture of my opaque uranium two lipped rinser, and although not easy to see the sizes of the piece are decorated with slice cutting. Christine will probably chastise me but I've always understood that the more opaque the uranium green, then it's likely the age will increase - from memory some of the original jade shades were quoted as being 1840 - 1850??
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I don't know about that Paul but the opacity is a function of something other than uranium and something that seems to me more to be more related to manufacturer than age. The very acid yellow uranium stuff is a different matter.
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quote from Ivo ............... "the house does not have separate glasses for red and white wine, so between courses they need rinsed." Seems a paradox that if you live in a 'castle' your etiquette and finances haven't quite stretched to buying the correct glasses. ;)
Presumably this comment implies they used a green glass for white (Rhenish) wine, and a clear (white) glass for red wine - the green glass often being a uranium green.
The Stuarts were repressed and seriously deprived of income for centuries - and were impoverished. Electricity and running water were not installed until way into the 20th century. That is one reason the castle remains in such an amazing original state. There were no fancy glasses - just the one and the rincer.
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l thought people may like to see full set
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Very attractive John - all you have to do now is think of a use for them, but guess the canny French might have been nearer the mark than we thought - good for cereal bowls - grapefruit bowls - dinkie hanging baskets for plants - containers for night lights - spitoons - water bowl for the dog etc. etc.
the Stuarts apparently gave England it's original monarchy and only finally lost the line early in the C18 when England turned to the House of Hanover for George I, who was unable to speak a word of English, and seems to have spent more time in Germany than the U.K.
I thought Ivo was going to say it was the English that deprived the Scots of their money - of course it may have been - I've no idea. On the other hand perhaps the lack of power and glasses was the result of the laird's over zealous parsimony ;) ;)
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http://www.traquair.co.uk/brief-history-traquair-and-family
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The Georgian House (a National Trust property) in Edinburgh has its dining room set with a clear glass rinser at each place setting but the NT sometimes are a wee bit fanciful in recreating scenes. Almany.com has a clear stock image showing them.
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I envy you the visit Ivo - history is so interesting. Just to add a little more detail to the history of coolers/rinsers, which apparently are more likely to be described as rinsers in the States.
From their beginnings in the U.K. (middle of the C18?), and through most of the period of George III and IV - c. 1780 to 1830 ish - rinsers tend to have straight sides and are deeper than the bowl shaped shallower pieces that succeeded them, and very early examples appear to have had a single 'ear/lip only............. in the C18 it's suggested that there was just one glass used for drinking, and this may not always have been for reasons of economy.
The earlier straight sided examples .... the overall shape was tapered inward slightly toward the base .... appears to have been a shape that derived from having started life in a mould, which would of necessity been slightly wider at the top, to avoid any problems in removing the glass once shaped.
Green was a colour that occurs very commonly for vast amounts of glass shapes in the C18, C19 and C20 - rinsers and finger bowls being no exception, but such items are seen only rarely in uranium glass, and in view of the date of invention by Reidel, won't be found in table glass prior to c. 1840.
Ref. 'Glass Antiques Checklist' - Mark West - 1994
'English, Scottish & Irish Table Glass ' - G. Bernard Hughes - 1956.
'Coloured Glass' - Derek C. Davis & Keith Middlemas - 1968. plus 'the internet' - current.